vaccine required?

[Fonda cruising]

Do any of you know a cruise line which does not currently require the Covid shot but will accept a negative PCR or medical verification of immunity?

[caribill]

I find that I have been misinterpreting what efficacy means for a vaccine. I have learned 95% efficacy  does not mean that 5% of vaccinated people do not have enough immunity.

 

It does mean that each vaccinated person has 95% less probability of catching the virus.

 

 

"What the 95% actually means is that vaccinated people had a 95% lower risk of getting COVID-19 compared with the control group participants, who weren't vaccinated. In other words, vaccinated people in the Pfizer clinical trial were 20 times less likely than the control group to get COVID-19."

 

https://www.livescience.com/covid-19-vaccine-efficacy-explained.html

[AZjohn]

3 hours ago, caribill said:

I find that I have been misinterpreting what efficacy means for a vaccine. I have learned 95% efficacy  does not mean that 5% of vaccinated people do not have enough immunity.

 

It does mean that each vaccinated person has 95% less probability of catching the virus.

 

 

"What the 95% actually means is that vaccinated people had a 95% lower risk of getting COVID-19 compared with the control group participants, who weren't vaccinated. In other words, vaccinated people in the Pfizer clinical trial were 20 times less likely than the control group to get COVID-19."

 

https://www.livescience.com/covid-19-vaccine-efficacy-explained.html

I think the bottom line paragraph really summarizes your linked article the best 🙂

 

All three vaccines were 100% effective at preventing severe disease six weeks after the first dose (for Moderna) or seven weeks after the first dose (for Pfizer and Johnson & Johnson, the latter of which requires only one dose). Zero vaccinated people in any of the trials were hospitalized or died of COVID-19 after the vaccines had fully taken effect. 

 

[caribill]

3 hours ago, AZjohn said:

I think the bottom line paragraph really summarizes your linked article the best 🙂

 

All three vaccines were 100% effective at preventing severe disease six weeks after the first dose (for Moderna) or seven weeks after the first dose (for Pfizer and Johnson & Johnson, the latter of which requires only one dose). Zero vaccinated people in any of the trials were hospitalized or died of COVID-19 after the vaccines had fully taken effect. 

 

 

After the trials, a very, very, very small number of fully vaccinated people have contracted the virus and passed away from it. No vaccine is perfect, but these vaccines are far better than originally believed possible.

 

3 people in Michigan

https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2021/04/06/vaccinated-covid-19-contract-virus-coronavirus/7101678002/

 

3 people in Oregon

https://www.registerguard.com/story/news/2021/04/09/coronavirus-updates-oregon-reports-678-new-covid-cases-5-new-deaths/7150760002/

[downsmead]

17 hours ago, Fonda cruising said:

Do any of you know a cruise line which does not currently require the Covid shot but will accept a negative PCR or medical verification of immunity?

MSC accept a negative PCR and do not require vaccinations I believe.

[Scotmay]

1 hour ago, downsmead said:

MSC accept a negative PCR and do not require vaccinations I believe.

Good to know. Will definitely NOT be cruising with them. Thank you. 

[nocl]

10 hours ago, caribill said:

I find that I have been misinterpreting what efficacy means for a vaccine. I have learned 95% efficacy  does not mean that 5% of vaccinated people do not have enough immunity.

 

It does mean that each vaccinated person has 95% less probability of catching the virus.

 

 

"What the 95% actually means is that vaccinated people had a 95% lower risk of getting COVID-19 compared with the control group participants, who weren't vaccinated. In other words, vaccinated people in the Pfizer clinical trial were 20 times less likely than the control group to get COVID-19."

 

https://www.livescience.com/covid-19-vaccine-efficacy-explained.html

Keep in mind that Clinical trials represent performance at a given point in time.  They give a relative performance of the vaccine at that particular moment with that particular set of participants.  They are intended to give an idea if the vaccine works.  

 

They are an indicator of how one might expect a vaccine will work in the real world, but not an exact measure.  Especially with variance in the incidence of the illness, changes in the virus, other measures in place.

[ebeluga]

If experts’ guidance conflicts, shouldn’t we act to err on the side of caution or pick the ones that are music to our years to follow?

[downsmead]

2 hours ago, Scotmay said:

Good to know. Will definitely NOT be cruising with them. Thank you. 

Most of our U.K. cruises are vaccinated adults only - passengers though. It seems that some / most are unlikely to be able to have all their crew vaccinated 🤷‍♀️.

A few (Celebrity being one) are accepting under 18’s with a negative PCR, since they are not able to receive a vaccination in the U.K.

[azbirdmom]

Interesting article on requiring that passengers be vaccinated etc.  Included is a  statement from a spokeswoman from Carnival re: this isn't something the CDC should mandate for cruisers.  DeSantis says he can bar cruise lines' vaccine mandates - South Florida Sun-Sentinel (sun-sentinel.com)

Edited April 13, 2021 by azbirdmom

[MamaFej]

31 minutes ago, azbirdmom said:

Interesting article on requiring that passengers be vaccinated etc.  Included is a  statement from a spokeswoman from Carnival re: this isn't something the CDC should mandate for cruisers.  DeSantis says he can bar cruise lines' vaccine mandates - South Florida Sun-Sentinel (sun-sentinel.com)

TL:DR- DeSantis is laboring under the delusion that he has authority he doesn't actually have. Cruise lines are playing it close to the vest, and don't want to commit to policies re US based cruising because things are still in flux between CLIA, the CDC, and the Coast Guard.

 

 

[caribill]

6 hours ago, azbirdmom said:

Interesting article on requiring that passengers be vaccinated etc.  Included is a  statement from a spokeswoman from Carnival re: this isn't something the CDC should mandate for cruisers.  DeSantis says he can bar cruise lines' vaccine mandates - South Florida Sun-Sentinel (sun-sentinel.com)

 

Even if a cruise line itself does not require proof of vaccination, a country on the itinerary may require it and this the cruise line will need to verify the proof at embarkation time.

[ontheweb]

3 hours ago, caribill said:

 

Even if a cruise line itself does not require proof of vaccination, a country on the itinerary may require it and this the cruise line will need to verify the proof at embarkation time.

And if that is the case, passengers without the vaccine will not be able to sail; they won't be able to just say well we'll stay on the ship for that particular port. Same as in the past when people without visas for Brazil had been denied boarding.

[capriccio]

This morning's news out of Florida (Sun-Sentinel https://www.sun-sentinel.com/business/fl-bz-silversea-cruises-to-require-vaccinations-20210412-7ok6fwabpndc5aop6oyla5tgvq-story.html?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Don't Miss&utm_content=5601618279477#nws=true)

 

Silverseas cruise line announced yesterday that vaccines will be mandatory.  In response the governor's press office emphasized that his EO extends to cruise lines operating in Florida.

 

“The Governor’s Executive Order provides that businesses in Florida are prohibited from requiring patrons or customers to provide any documentation certifying COVID-19 vaccination or post-transmission recovery to gain access to, entry upon, or service from the business,” press secretary Cody McCloud said by email. “Therefore, the Executive Order prohibits cruise lines from requiring vaccine passports for their Florida operations.”

 

As to the question of whether DeSantis has the legal authority to do so the article quotes two maritime lawyers, one who says possibly only if the cruise ships are traveling from one Florida port to another.  The other commented that DeSantis calling for the CDC to allow cruise lines to resume operations while prohibiting cruise lines from requiring vaccinations was the equivalent of having your cake and eating it too. “Both of these issues are well outside the jurisdiction of a state governor.”

 

 

Edited April 13, 2021 by capriccio

[d9704011]

8 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

And if that is the case, passengers without the vaccine will not be able to sail; they won't be able to just say well we'll stay on the ship for that particular port. Same as in the past when people without visas for Brazil had been denied boarding.

.... same as it ever was.

 

Talking Heads

[ontheweb]

1 hour ago, d9704011 said:

.... same as it ever was.

 

Talking Heads

Burnin Down the House

 

Talking Heads

[D C]

5 hours ago, caribill said:

 

Even if a cruise line itself does not require proof of vaccination, a country on the itinerary may require it and this the cruise line will need to verify the proof at embarkation time.

Why would that responsibility fall on the cruise line instead of on the immigration officials in the port of call? 

[D C]

1 hour ago, capriccio said:

This morning's news out of Florida (Sun-Sentinel https://www.sun-sentinel.com/business/fl-bz-silversea-cruises-to-require-vaccinations-20210412-7ok6fwabpndc5aop6oyla5tgvq-story.html?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Don't Miss&utm_content=5601618279477#nws=true)

 

Silverseas cruise line announced yesterday that vaccines will be mandatory.  In response the governor's press office emphasized that his EO extends to cruise lines operating in Florida.

 

“The Governor’s Executive Order provides that businesses in Florida are prohibited from requiring patrons or customers to provide any documentation certifying COVID-19 vaccination or post-transmission recovery to gain access to, entry upon, or service from the business,” press secretary Cody McCloud said by email. “Therefore, the Executive Order prohibits cruise lines from requiring vaccine passports for their Florida operations.”

 

As to the question of whether DeSantis has the legal authority to do so the article quotes two maritime lawyers, one who says possibly only if the cruise ships are traveling from one Florida port to another.  The other commented that DeSantis calling for the CDC to allow cruise lines to resume operations while prohibiting cruise lines from requiring vaccinations was the equivalent of having your cake and eating it too. “Both of these issues are well outside the jurisdiction of a state governor.”

 

 

DeSantis is probably making that stand to save face before rolling over.   

 

Or he's an idiot. 

[voljeep]

4 minutes ago, D C said:

DeSantis is probably making that stand to save face before rolling over.   

 

Or he's an idiot. 

says the poster from Michigan who is getting ready to go into a statewide shutdown while Florida counties are getting ready to lift mandatory mask requirements

 

uh-oh

[capriccio]

13 minutes ago, D C said:

Why would that responsibility fall on the cruise line instead of on the immigration officials in the port of call? 

In the case of Brazil and the required yellow fever shot on an Amazon cruise back more than a decade ago immigration boarded the ship at the mouth of the Amazon and did check and if anyone didn’t produce the vaccination record or a valid doctors explanation of why the vaccine was contra-indicated the ship wasn’t allowed to sail up the Amazon.

[K.T.B.]

1 hour ago, ontheweb said:

Burnin Down the House

 

Talking Heads

 

Stop Making Sense.  I sense some irony there...

[K.T.B.]

51 minutes ago, D C said:

DeSantis is probably making that stand to save face before rolling over.   

 

Or he's an idiot. 

 

Both of those are not mutually exclusive.

[Daniel A]

1 hour ago, D C said:

DeSantis is probably making that stand to save face before rolling over.   

I can't get inside the governors head, so I don't profess to know what his thinking is.  That said, is it possible that he's taking a principled stance?  I didn't understand his position on this initially, but it's beginning to become more clear to me.  (BTW, I am fully in favor of vaccinated only cruises and I will not sail on any ship which is not fully vaccinated.)  Once again, New York's Governor to the rescue!  He has come out with "Excelsior Pass" for New York residents.  "At major stadiums and arenas, spectators must show proof of a negative COVID-19 PCR test taken within 72 hours, COVID-19 antigen test taken within 6 hours, or proof of full vaccination (to be fully vaccinated you must have completed your vaccine series at least 14 days prior). As of April 1, smaller sports venues can also reopen with spectators under the same guidelines for proof of a negative test or vaccination. Easily retrieve and save proof of vaccination or a negative COVID-19 test with Excelsior Pass...Starting April 2, venues can welcome more people with proof of vaccination or a recent negative COVID test for entry. Easily retrieve and save proof of vaccination or a negative COVID-19 test with Excelsior Pass."

 

Unfortunately, not all New York residents are eligible to get the state approved "pass" to enter businesses and other venues.  "Some entities that are not under the regulatory authority of the State of New York (e.g., federal entities, first nations and jurisdictions outside of New York State) may not report into these systems, which may make a Pass unavailable"

 

New York has now created a second class group of citizens who are fully vaccinated by denying them this "pass" to be required at venues.  Even though vaccinated, they must get a PCR test within 72 hours of planning to enter a business, sports venue, theater, and most likely many other commercial establishments.  Among the vaccinated people disenfranchised by the State of New York are:  US Military Personnel, Veterans who got vaccinated at a VA Health Center, Native Americans, snow birds, and many others who were in underserved communities which were locations where FEMA gave the vaccine.

 

The issue of documenting and requiring vaccine passports is a complex issue without a simple resolution.

 

Excelsior Pass: Frequently Asked Questions | COVID-19 Vaccine (ny.gov)

 

Edited April 13, 2021 by Daniel A

[memoak]

2 hours ago, D C said:

DeSantis is probably making that stand to save face before rolling over.   

 

Or he's an idiot. 

I am sure that other east coast and gulf states will be willing to pick up some of these cruises.  Is. Florida really willing to give up cruise dollars ?

[D C]

2 hours ago, voljeep said:

says the poster from Michigan who is getting ready to go into a statewide shutdown while Florida counties are getting ready to lift mandatory mask requirements

 

uh-oh

Did your post have a point?