Florida Will Sue...

[SelectSys]

30 minutes ago, ldubs said:

 

We are going to be having a get-together with 4 other family members.   All of us have now had the vaccine.   After a year of isolation it feels very strange.  I have to admit there is still a  large amount of cautious thinking, at least for us.   Even with the vaccine we are not ready to dive in the deep end.  Going to be a slower process for us.  

Like I said, I don't know if my attitude will change post vaccination - assuming I can get an appointment which will probably take some persistence for the foreseeable future. 

 

The nice weather this week locally has certainly got me thinking more about getting out of the house.  I can't still see any cruise for me this year.  My hope is Q2 2022. 

 

 

[ldubs]

3 minutes ago, SelectSys said:

 

 

The nice weather this week locally has certainly got me thinking more about getting out of the house.  I can't still see any cruise for me this year.  My hope is Q2 2022. 

 

 

 

We have one booked for Q3 2022 -- knock on wood.  

 

The weather has me out doing some major yard work.  Looking to the future I decided to make my yard more "senior friendly".   I told Mrs Ldubs someone my age should be paying someone else to have this done.   She just said "uh huh".  I get no respect!  Lol.   

 

Tomorrow, I will be at the lake trying for a limit of trout.  

[capriccio]

The latest from Governor DeSantis (South Florida Sun-Sentinel) :

Gov. Ron DeSantis said he would issue an executive order banning what he called “vaccination passports” in Florida, which would prevent businesses from requiring proof of COVID-19 inoculation for entry.

At the same time, however, he signed a bill into law that limits businesses’ liability for COVID-19 claims.

 

 

[bbwex]

Well this this discussion has gone all over the place.  Hlitner has it right that if a lawsuit is filed, it will be much longer before it is resolved than it will take for cruising to get back to normal.  And the comment that the PVSA is unlikely to be found unconstitutional is also correct. 

 

While DW and I have both had both of our shots, we are still cautious about getting into big groups, and I am sure that the cruise lines have concerns about an outbreak on one of their ships.  The new operations out of the Bahamas and elsewhere will tell  the tale as we see how things go. 

 

They are working on a vaccination passport, and hopefully that will be worked out.  Lots of countries are working on that project in one way or another.  Sadly, it should have been worked out before the vaccinations started, as those of us who have had the shots already will have to go back to get things verified, and that will depend on how good the records are wherever you got your vaccinations.  I got mine at the VA, and I think they have good records on it, but at the other mass vaccination sites, who knows?

 

As they say, we are getting to the end of the tunnel, but we need to wait a little longer to get the last details into place.  I want to go cruising as much as anyone, but I need to have a comfort level that everyone is safe or reasonably so.

[Joebucks]

On 3/28/2021 at 12:51 PM, Ride-The-Waves said:

Another "its all a hoax."  Explain that to the families of the 550,000 Americans who have died from this virus and to the hundreds of thousands who are long-term sufferers.  Good to know you don't care and humanity.

 

Not all of us live in black and white. No where did I say a hoax. What I said is some of us believe some of the measures taken for a virus that has killed .03% of the world's population have been an overreaction. Your argument about 550,000 families has no substance other than to stir up emotions. It's why we cannot have a discussion about resuming cruises, because some will just respond with "but 550,000 families!"

 

On 3/28/2021 at 8:04 PM, rkacruiser said:

 

Except the number of new infections are now increasing.

 

And, sir, why were some of the Governor's public health orders modified?  In the best public interest?  Or, to try to squash the "uprising" within his own political party within the General Assembly?  If that was his thought, it surely failed.  

 

Everyone believes what they want, is what is best for everyone. Some believe it is in the public's best interest to remain locked up and wait until they are giving the green light. Some people believe it is time to get back to normal life, and get people working again. And yes, his base did not choose the first one. No matter what, you will never please everyone.

 

21 hours ago, iancal said:

I believe that most people will resume cruising when they feel it is safe to do so.

 

Not when the cruise lines say it is, not when the outcome of some lawsuit says cruising can start, and most definitely not when a politician says it is safe.

 

Does anyone really believe that the cruise lines or the politicians place the publics health, safety, and well being above all else??? 

 

 Seems to me their respective focus is on revenue/profit and getting elected or re-elected.   We can only judge them by their past performance and track record.

 

Seems to me that you have taken your stance of what you believe it right and just. Let us all remind ourselves that a politician's job is to represent the people. Which getting elected or re-elected follows. It works both ways. Their #1 duty is not health orders, regardless of what anyone says.

 

Some people want "protection" from the government. Some people want "freedom" from the government. This has never, and will never change. Then the politician takes the data of what is going on, and where they are likely to see support from the public. Sorry to all of those who cry for safety and prolonged shutdowns, that is rapidly losing support.

[cruisemom42]

42 minutes ago, Joebucks said:

 

Your argument about 550,000 families has no substance other than to stir up emotions. It's why we cannot have a discussion about resuming cruises, because some will just respond with "but 550,000 families!"

 

I am curious why the deaths of over half a million people seem to not bother certain people, yet at other times in our history, the American public can be very strongly swayed by much lower numbers -- for example, the number of people who died in the Pearl Harbor attack or on 9/11. 

 

More than half a million deaths is too many deaths for a first-world country, whatever the relevant percentage is.

 

I am curious what supports a view that is contrary to this? 

 

 

42 minutes ago, Joebucks said:

Let us all remind ourselves that a politician's job is to represent the people. Which getting elected or re-elected follows. It works both ways. Their #1 duty is not health orders, regardless of what anyone says.

 

 

But sometimes the politician's job is to distinguish between issues where "what the people want" is not necessarily in their best interest. At times in our past there were huge numbers of people opposed to smoking bans and restrictions. Not to mention significant industries (e.g., tobacco industry) where people would lose jobs -- far higher numbers of people than those in the US who support the cruise industry).

 

And yet, we moved forward with the science, in order to prevent a certain number of preventable deaths. 

 

Granted, our Representatives have a fairly narrow brief (e.g., are not traditionally supposed to take the broader view of a Senator or President).  But at the same time, it was always my understanding that even a Representative was supposed to make decisions based on the good of his or her entire electorate, not just those who voted FOR him or her....

 

 

[jfunk138]

36 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

More than half a million deaths is too many deaths for a first-world country, whatever the relevant percentage is.

If percentages are difficult for you to compare, perhaps try "first-world unions of states" to "first-world unions of states"

 

Union of European States (aka the EU) 611,000 deaths 

Union of American States (aka the US) 550,000 deaths

 

Edited March 30, 2021 by jfunk138

[CruiserBruce]

19 minutes ago, jfunk138 said:

If percentages are difficult for you to compare, perhaps try "first-world unions of states" to "first-world unions of states"

 

Union of European States (aka the EU) 611,000 deaths 

Union of American States (aka the US) 550,000 deaths

 

Good point. As the EU has 447 million people, to the US population of 330 million,  it would appear the US has done slightly better...although density probably has some impact as well.

[cruisemom42]

22 minutes ago, jfunk138 said:

If percentages are difficult for you to compare, perhaps try "first-world unions of states" to "first-world unions of states"

 

Union of European States (aka the EU) 611,000 deaths 

Union of American States (aka the US) 550,000 deaths

 

 

My point wasn't so much one of comparison but of overall high numbers and why there seems to be a rather passive acceptance of them regardless of what % of the population they are. 

 

We seem to spend a lot of energy fighting each other on small points, when instead we should be fighting a larger common enemy...

[clo]

1 hour ago, cruisemom42 said:

But sometimes the politician's job is to distinguish between issues where "what the people want" is not necessarily in their best interest.

Oh, lordy, yes. Here in Reno - and I'm guessing everywhere else - there are groups who for instance don't want more housing and they think the city council should turn down any permit requests...because they don't want it. Even though with the current number of homes for sale and the rate at which they're selling, we only have two weeks of "inventory." Thank you for, as usual, making your point so well.

[jfunk138]

10 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

My point wasn't so much one of comparison but of overall high numbers and why there seems to be a rather passive acceptance of them regardless of what % of the population they are. 

 

We seem to spend a lot of energy fighting each other on small points, when instead we should be fighting a larger common enemy...

Citing an arbitrary high number is not useful to the discussion. 

 

If you want to talk about large numbers how about?
-685 million norovirus cases per year? 
-200,000 norovirus deaths per year?

And that's every year, not just one particular year.  We seem to have a "passive acceptance" of norovirus...

Edited March 30, 2021 by jfunk138

[cruisemom42]

18 minutes ago, jfunk138 said:

And that's every year, not just one particular year.  We seem to have a "passive acceptance" of norovirus...

 

Not really.

 

Are you familiar with the CDC Vessel Sanitation Program and all the guidelines ships are required to follow to reduce the incidence of noro?

 

One might argue they are as onerous in their way as what is being proposed by CDC for COVID prevention. 

 

And certainly ships have been turned away from ports (or had cruises cut short) when there is a large enough % of cases onboard...

 

Edited March 30, 2021 by cruisemom42

[SelectSys]

39 minutes ago, CruiserBruce said:

Good point. As the EU has 447 million people, to the US population of 330 million,  it would appear the US has done slightly better...although density probably has some impact as well.

Actually the opposite is true in that the EU has done better than the US, but the numbers are somewhat comparable as are the issues.  It seems super difficult to control large, highly populate land areas that have a societies possessing freedom of mobility, action and civil disobedience.  Both also are by no means culturally uniform as well which again makes things tougher.

 

1 hour ago, cruisemom42 said:

But sometimes the politician's job is to distinguish between issues where "what the people want" is not necessarily in their best interest.

A tough job to say the least!  Especially with confidence in political leaders so low generally at least in the US.   

 

It seems politicians are more interested in being the "tooth fairy" for their supporters and, perhaps more importantly, the special interests that fund their campaigns rather than leaders.

 

33 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

We seem to spend a lot of energy fighting each other

It certainly seems that the "politics of division" are all the rage these days.  I am curious what will bring back some sense of normalcy and shared values?

 

26 minutes ago, clo said:

Here in Reno - and I'm guessing everywhere else - there are groups who for instance don't want more housing and they think the city council should turn down any permit requests...because they don't want it

BANANA - build absolutely nothing anywhere near anything!  Anything in California is literally anything - man made or natural!

 

Some old songs from the Surf Punks seems appropriate.  Who can forget such classics as "My Beach"  and  "My Wave?"

 

26 minutes ago, clo said:

Even though with the current number of homes for sale and the rate at which they're selling, we only have two weeks of "inventory."

Super tough on the poor and young!  Good for sellers!

Edited March 30, 2021 by SelectSys

[clo]

9 minutes ago, SelectSys said:

BANANA - build absolutely nothing anywhere near anything!  Anything in California is literally anything - man made or natural!

 

LOL. Hadn't read that one. Absolutely.

 

10 minutes ago, SelectSys said:

Super tough on the poor and young!  Good for sellers!

And rentals are equally scarce.  We're actually close to putting our house on the market a couple of years sooner than we thought for that reason.

[SelectSys]

5 minutes ago, clo said:

And rentals are equally scarce.  We're actually close to putting our house on the market a couple of years sooner than we thought for that reason.

Good idea!  

[jfunk138]

33 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Not really.

 

Are you familiar with the CDC Vessel Sanitation Program and all the guidelines ships are required to follow to reduce the incidence of noro?

 

One might argue they are as onerous in their way as what is being proposed by CDC for COVID prevention. 

 

And certainly ships have been turned away from ports (or had cruises cut short) when there is a large enough % of cases onboard...

 

When we start talking about "Noro passports" that certify you've been tested for Noro before boarding then you talk about how "onerous" the guidelines are for Noro.
 

And I've yet to hear anyone on CC call for mandatory Noro testing so that they won't have to miss a port stop.

People on CC most certainly have a "passive acceptance" of Noro.

[slidergirl]

4 hours ago, Joebucks said:

 

Not all of us live in black and white. No where did I say a hoax. What I said is some of us believe some of the measures taken for a virus that has killed .03% of the world's population have been an overreaction. Your argument about 550,000 families has no substance other than to stir up emotions. It's why we cannot have a discussion about resuming cruises, because some will just respond with "but 550,000 families!"

 

 

Everyone believes what they want, is what is best for everyone. Some believe it is in the public's best interest to remain locked up and wait until they are giving the green light. Some people believe it is time to get back to normal life, and get people working again. And yes, his base did not choose the first one. No matter what, you will never please everyone.

 

 

Seems to me that you have taken your stance of what you believe it right and just. Let us all remind ourselves that a politician's job is to represent the people. Which getting elected or re-elected follows. It works both ways. Their #1 duty is not health orders, regardless of what anyone says.

 

Some people want "protection" from the government. Some people want "freedom" from the government. This has never, and will never change. Then the politician takes the data of what is going on, and where they are likely to see support from the public. Sorry to all of those who cry for safety and prolonged shutdowns, that is rapidly losing support.

I get very, very upset when someone brings up the "0.03%" deal.  That is death.  Yes, it's horrific.  The 550,000 number of deaths in the US isn't just to stir up emotions.  Look at it compared to annual flu deaths - many times more.  With masking and other measures in place, we most likely prevented more deaths.  BUT, the 0.03% does not include the thousands of us who are living with "long haul" complications that can last the rest of our lives.  Serious heart issues, damaged lungs, now we're diabetic, blood clots.  I don't think anyone wants to live with this, so just the fact that we had COVID and didn't die isn't exactly a success story to be ignored in the discussion about what happens when you get COVID.  It absolutely is NOT black and white.   Public health is not a popular concept, especially in the US, IMHO.  It's more of a "what's in it for me" concept.  My thought is that if everyone took masking and distancing and hand sanitation seriously, we in the US wouldn't have to worry about more lockdowns.  But, it's the unfortunate group who wants it all now that is causing the problems.  Get the da*n vaccinations and keep up the public health procedures and things will eventually get better - if we don't do this, it's not going to end.  

[SelectSys]

8 minutes ago, slidergirl said:

Public health is not a popular concept, especially in the US, IMHO.  It's more of a "what's in it for me" concept.  My thought is that if everyone took masking and distancing and hand sanitation seriously, we in the US wouldn't have to worry about more lockdowns. 

I just don't think it's as different in the US as you might think.  The EU, UK and the US all have segments of the population believing different things and have included protests.  The numbers show a somewhat similar pattern when you look at the data.  Could we have done better? Of course but the "politics of division" are in charge now.

 

10 minutes ago, slidergirl said:

It's more of a "what's in it for me" concept

A sad commentary on the "Boomer" generation and the popular values stemming from their coming of age in the 60's & 70's. Note - I am a "Boomer" too.  Public service nor sacrifice was ever a core value for those living by the Timothy Leary catch phrase, "Turn on, tune in, drop out" or believers in the "Me Generation."

 

BTW - I added Israel to the charts to show the power of vaccinations and to provide some hope.  The UK data is starting to show this as well I think with respect to case rates and additional death.

 

The data:

Cases 

Deaths:

[jfunk138]

10 minutes ago, SelectSys said:

I just don't think it's as different in the US as you might think.  The EU, UK and the US all have segments of the population believing different things and have included protests.  The numbers show a somewhat similar pattern when you look at the data.  Could we have done better? Of course but the "politics of division" are in charge now.

 

A sad commentary on the "Boomer" generation and the popular values stemming from their coming of age in the 60's & 70's. Note - I am a "Boomer" too.  Public service nor sacrifice was ever a core value for those living by the Timothy Leary catch phrase, "Turn on, tune in, drop out" or believers in the "Me Generation."

 

BTW - I added Israel to the charts to show the power of vaccinations and to provide some hope.  The UK data is starting to show this as well I think with respect to case rates and additional death.

 

The data:

Cases 

Deaths:

The problem with the Israel "hope" is that the declines more or less mirror both the US and UK, despite vaccinating 2-3x as many.

UK death rate is currently lower than Israel, despite having a vaccination less than half of Israel.  If vaccination is the cause, shouldn't Israel's numbers be much better?

https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&time=334..433&pickerSort=desc&pickerMetric=new_cases_smoothed_per_million&Metric=Vaccinations&Interval=Cumulative&Relative+to+Population=true&Align+outbreaks=false&country=USA~ISR~GBR

[SelectSys]

1 minute ago, jfunk138 said:

The problem with the Israel "hope" is that the declines more or less mirror both the US and UK, despite vaccinating 2-3x as many.

Case rates are the lowest are still declining in Israel and death is somewhat of a lagging indicator.  However, you are correct in that the direction of the US and UK are following Israel.

 

I still think the real comparison is with the the EU where vaccinations are less prevalent and both case rates and death rates don't seem to be not dropping as fast. 

 

I am convinced the US will have another wave from Spring Break as the younger people have certainly been out and about and they are also the least likely to have been vaccinated. 

[jfunk138]

Just now, SelectSys said:

I am convinced the US will have another wave from Spring Break as the younger people have certainly been out and about and they are also the least likely to have been vaccinated. 

Most of the colleges in the northeast, where cases are rising, cancelled their spring break this year. 

A quick sampling of Boston College, Harvard, Penn State, Ohio State, found all four had cancelled spring break this year.

[SelectSys]

36 minutes ago, jfunk138 said:

Most of the colleges in the northeast, where cases are rising, cancelled their spring break this year. 

Maybe not all of the students got the message?  Consider those who aren't in college as well including families. 

 

https://abcnews.go.com/US/miami-beach-residents-protest-city-hall-chaos-caused/story?id=76736959

 

https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/travel/destinations/2021/03/21/cancun-spring-break-tourists-in-mexico-covid-explain-why-traveled/4669009001/

 

https://news.yahoo.com/spring-break-party-covid-19-120126601.html

 

https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/san-diego-infectious-disease-expert-expects-covid-19-mini-surge-after-spring-break/2562976/

[jfunk138]

8 minutes ago, SelectSys said:

Maybe not all of the students got the message?  Consider those who aren't in college as well including families. 

 

https://abcnews.go.com/US/miami-beach-residents-protest-city-hall-chaos-caused/story?id=76736959

 

https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/travel/destinations/2021/03/21/cancun-spring-break-tourists-in-mexico-covid-explain-why-traveled/4669009001/

 

https://news.yahoo.com/spring-break-party-covid-19-120126601.html

 

https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/san-diego-infectious-disease-expert-expects-covid-19-mini-surge-after-spring-break/2562976/

I'm not sure where the people are coming from but in the northeast, families with school children have "winter break" either President's week or the week after (over a month ago at this point) and spring break, the 3rd week in April.  Neither of those can explain the current rise in cases.

Also, have you seen the testing regimes they have in place on college campuses?  If college students were indeed to blame in the northeast, we would have hard data already.  But what we get are anecdotal news articles link you posted above.  

I'm not denying there are people on the beach in Florida who don't live there.  But it's very much a stretch to assume they are students from the northeast.

[mom says]

6 minutes ago, jfunk138 said:

But it's very much a stretch to assume they are students from the northeast.

Does it matter where they are from? Does it even matter whether or not they are students? It remains that large numbers of mainly young people were/are congregating in close quarters and not practicing safety measures. If that doesn't foster a superspread and spike in cases, it will be a miracle. It's the lack of compliance with public health measures that is dragging this pandemic out.

[lenquixote66]

11 minutes ago, mom says said:

Does it matter where they are from? Does it even matter whether or not they are students? It remains that large numbers of mainly young people were/are congregating in close quarters and not practicing safety measures. If that doesn't foster a superspread and spike in cases, it will be a miracle. It's the lack of compliance with public health measures that is dragging this pandemic out.

Once again we agree