DeSantis nearing compromise on cruise vaccination requirements

[ontheweb]

10 hours ago, TNcruising02 said:

Pretty soon, the test cruises will be finished and sailing can resume.  It looks like the test cruises will probably be finished sometime in July.  Then the ships will be free to sail.

Unless they go the 95% passenger vaccination route, each ship would need an approved test cruise. I can't see all that being accomplished in July.

[evandbob]

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/business/tourism-cruises/article251845698.html

[Tom-n-Cheryl]

1 minute ago, evandbob said:

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/business/tourism-cruises/article251845698.html

 

BLAME is the game.

[cscurlock]

7 hours ago, songbird1329 said:

 

You want it, you’ve got it.

 

I read all of the papers submitted to the court.  I have not seen the transcript of the oral argument held before the court.

 

when I read the initial motion for a preliminary injunction, I thought Florida’s argument was weak.  I had to agree with the legal scholars that the case was more about political grandstanding and less about actually obtaining relief from the court.

 

I also thought it very telling that the cruise lines didn’t join the suit, but rather, continued to work with the CDC.

 

Floridas legal position has weakened.  The CDC and the cruise lines have reached a point where the ships are likely to sail this summer.  Congress has given its blessing by passing ATRA, which conditions Alaska cruises on compliance with the CSO.

 

Florida continues to assert that the CSO is overreach by the CDC, and that it is causing irreparable harm to Florida.  But the cruises are going to sail this summer, aren’t they?

 

meanwhile, Florida has enacted a law that prevents private businesses from requiring proof of vaccination in order to obtain services.  A business violating this law faces hefty fines.  Other states have executive orders preventing state and local governments from asking for proof, but the only state affected by the CSO that has extended the ban to private enterprises is Florida.  It’s a big deal for DeSantis.

 

Those lovely cards issued by the CDC proving someone has been vaccinated are probably the CDC’s “line in the sand”.  
 

The mediation was doomed to failure.

I agree with almost everything you said.  I would disagree on the vaccinated being the CDC's line in the sand.  The cruise lines were not mandated to take vaccinated passengers only.  They have the option of doing the test sailings.   The cruise line has made the decision on that.  So that line is between the cruise line and Florida.  Vaccination requirements are not part of the discussion as the CDC hasn't mandated anything.  If that is what was being discussed in mediation then of course it went no where as the cruise lines made the request to the CDC for this.  

 

Not much of a leg to stand on as the cruise lines are already resuming in Florida and Alaska.  The vaccination law on Florida will challenged at the end of June when he tries to charge Celebrity.   Then the court will weigh in and say its unconstitutional and it might bring the entire law down.  

[bamaone]

25 minutes ago, cscurlock said:

Then the court will weigh in and say its unconstitutional and it might bring the entire law down.  

So you think the courts will say a law that is in place to protect people’s constitutional rights is unconstitutional? That would be a sad day in the United States of America. 

[Tom-n-Cheryl]

21 minutes ago, bamaone said:

So you think the courts will say a law that is in place to protect people’s constitutional rights is unconstitutional? That would be a sad day in the United States of America. 

 

We've already had A LOT of "sad days" for America of late...

[cscurlock]

10 minutes ago, bamaone said:

So you think the courts will say a law that is in place to protect people’s constitutional rights is unconstitutional? That would be a sad day in the United States of America. 

I will say that the state of Florida has no constitutional right the interfere with business inside a foreign flagged vessel with the exception of alcohol sales or if there is a direct threat to the state from the ship.  That's in the constitution under the commerce and case precedent.  Only the Congress has the power to regulate that.  As far as requiring a vaccine to enter a business or work for a business in Florida and not on a foreign flagged boat, I have not found anything that would prevent a private business from making it a requirement in the constitution.  In Texas there is a hospital that is requiring vaccinations for employees.  We will see soon enough if your theory holds for US businesses because that is the first lawsuit that has been filed.  If that lawsuit is unsuccessful by the employees then all these laws could fall as far as domestically. 

[bamaone]

2 minutes ago, cscurlock said:

I will say that the state of Florida has no constitutional right the interfere with business inside a foreign flagged vessel with the exception of alcohol sales or if there is a direct threat to the state from the ship.  That's in the constitution under the commerce and case precedent.  Only the Congress has the power to regulate that.  As far as requiring a vaccine to enter a business or work for a business in Florida and not on a foreign flagged boat, I have not found anything that would prevent a private business from making it a requirement in the constitution.  In Texas there is a hospital that is requiring vaccinations for employees.  We will see soon enough if your theory holds for US businesses because that is the first lawsuit that has been filed.  If that lawsuit is unsuccessful by the employees then all these laws could fall as far as domestically. 

Hopefully the courts stand for the people. 

[cscurlock]

Just now, bamaone said:

Hopefully the courts stand for the people. 

Its possible because the vaccination is still not FDA approved but the court has to rule based on the constitution which has no such rules.  Once these vaccinations are approved by FDA which will happen probably by September then all these restriction laws will be without merit as we have requirements for other FDA approved vaccines in the past has been mandatory to enter schools etc.  

 

For the cruise ships its not about the vaccine requirement.  Its about the money penalty under the Florida law would impact the ships business which it cannot do because of the constitution and separation of powers.  That power solely resides with Congress which is what our founders wanted since a cruise is considered international commerce.

[CI66774]

4 minutes ago, cscurlock said:

Its possible because the vaccination is still not FDA approved but the court has to rule based on the constitution which has no such rules.  Once these vaccinations are approved by FDA which will happen probably by September then all these restriction laws will be without merit as we have requirements for other FDA approved vaccines in the past has been mandatory to enter schools etc.  

 

For the cruise ships its not about the vaccine requirement.  Its about the money penalty under the Florida law would impact the ships business which it cannot do because of the constitution and separation of powers.  That power solely resides with Congress which is what our founders wanted since a cruise is considered international commerce.

Vaccine rules for schools are under the jurisdiction of STATE govts not Feds. Most cruises dont engage in interstate commerce as they travel to foreign countries. Moreover, state and ,ica, gifts have jurisdiction when the ship is docked in a state-owned port.

[Stallion]

7 minutes ago, CI66774 said:

Vaccine rules for schools are under the jurisdiction of STATE govts not Feds. Most cruises dont engage in interstate commerce as they travel to foreign countries. Moreover, state and ,ica, gifts have jurisdiction when the ship is docked in a state-owned port.

"Most cruises dont engage in interstate commerce as they travel to foreign countries."

 

Oh my!

Edited June 4, 2021 by Stallion

[TNcruising02]

1 hour ago, ontheweb said:

Unless they go the 95% passenger vaccination route, each ship would need an approved test cruise. I can't see all that being accomplished in July.

Disney is sailing one of its test cruises at the end of June.  So I guess we will see how soon Carnival can do it.

[Keys2Heaven]

Crossing my fingers DeSantis grants an exception to the cruise lines soon.

[TNcruising02]

5 minutes ago, Keys2Heaven said:

Crossing my fingers DeSantis grants an exception to the cruise lines soon.

I think the people at Carnival must know something to do an interview stating they will start with vaccinated people.

[Tom-n-Cheryl]

7 minutes ago, Keys2Heaven said:

Crossing my fingers DeSantis grants an exception to the cruise lines soon.

 

Don't hold your breath. Some people are destined to go down with the ship, so to speak. No matter - it will all work out one way or another, sooner or later... regardless of what we think of the whole process.

 

Tom

[bdever]

11 minutes ago, TNcruising02 said:

I think the people at Carnival must know something to do an interview stating they will start with vaccinated people.

Exactly! But we are left in the dark. So frustrating.

[florida eagle]

43 minutes ago, Babr said:

Not you personally - you as a representative of the group that says “I’ve got my rights” or “The governor is protecting our rights.”

 

I don’t  mean to offend. I genuinely do not understand the thinking.

 

Something is fundamentally broken in this country when we cannot recognize a common threat and work together to defeat it.

 

I fear we are being divided to our great peril.

A good start would be for the media and entertainers to tone it down. It is clear they are 95% on one side. And they convinced a lot of people of their way. 

[TNcruising02]

14 minutes ago, bdever said:

Exactly! But we are left in the dark. So frustrating.

Hopefully, they will make a solid statement.  My vaccination card is saved to my computer, so I am ready to upload it if needed.  I can roll with things either way, but it would be nice to have a decision made.  Then  we can all focus on our plans.  I have never felt more sure that my late August Mardi Gras cruise will sail!  

We have spent over a year not knowing when we can cruise again.  If feels good to see the ships back in the ports and to be so close to cruising.

[cscurlock]

4 minutes ago, ProgRockCruiser said:

As noted by @cscurlock, there are limits to which part is the actual "law".

 

Similarly, in most Contracts (or their attachments, like Statements of Work or Requirements Specification) there will be an introductory section that describes the overall scope of work in a user-friendly manner, which is not contractually binding ("This effort describes building a house, a really big house, with lots of doors.").  The next section is often the definitions for the document, such that the definition given is the contractually agreed one ("Door: a section of material attached via hinges to a doorway that swings on the hinges to seal the opening of the doorway, or opens to provide access through the doorway."  "Doorway: opening in a wall, from the floor level up to 7 feet +/- 2 inches, with a hinged attachment (see "door") that can be closed to prevent access through the wall").  Then the next section is often the actual requirements, which if they conflict with anything in the summary introduction, the detailed requirements section takes precedence.  "The building, referred to as a "house", will be 300 sq ft total footprint.  The building shall have one level/story.  There shall be two doorways.  Each doorway shall have one door.  The doors shall be positioned on opposing walls of the building."

 

The specification of 300 sq ft total supersedes the intro description of "really big" because "really big" is vague.  Similarly for "lots of doors" vs "shall be two doors".  No windows are mentioned, and no latching mechanism for the doors is specified.

 

The preamble is the glossy slick sheet, the actual laws are the detailed specification/contract.

Correct, fuzzy feelings and opinions are not law which is what you need to argue in court which is what we were discussing.  

Edited June 4, 2021 by cscurlock

[coffeebean]

On 6/2/2021 at 8:03 PM, BlerkOne said:

Disney is not trusting the general public to follow simple instructions and is probably going with "Volunteers" from Disneyworld and similar. They are already indoctrinated in Disney culture and would no doubt be fired if they screwed things up - despite what the CDC guidelines are.

 

The jury is still out as to whether or not Carnival will actually do test cruises. They are keeping those cards close to their chest. No dates have been released or leaked.

 

 

What good do test cruises do then if the general public can not be trusted to follow instructions? I still don't understand how test cruises simulate real life situations when, let's face it, much of the general public is all about "bucking the system".

[ProgRockCruiser]

Just now, coffeebean said:

What good do test cruises do then if the general public can not be trusted to follow instructions? I still don't understand how test cruises simulate real life situations when, let's face it, much of the general public is all about "bucking the system".

I'm hypothesizing that the Test Cruises are about testing the protocols, not testing whether the general public can follow them.  I would guess there will be tests with one or more of the simulated passengers not following the "rules" to ensure the cruise line has protocols for handling that situation too.

[coffeebean]

On 6/2/2021 at 9:15 PM, Stallion said:

Hopefully not long as long as one of those darn kids doesn't punch every floor

You KNOW they will still do that. Kids will be kids. They have no clue how dangerous that could be with Covid around.

[cscurlock]

5 minutes ago, ProgRockCruiser said:

I'm hypothesizing that the Test Cruises are about testing the protocols, not testing whether the general public can follow them.  I would guess there will be tests with one or more of the simulated passengers not following the "rules" to ensure the cruise line has protocols for handling that situation too.

Yeah, look at this way.  There is not a ton of data since last year on sailing on cruise ships with no rules.  They will be somewhat strict initially but as time goes on they will be paired down significantly.  Time is a major factor.  By November we will be discussing how we like the deck chairs more spaced out and rules improved regarding cruise service in the buffet and that new drink called c19 chiller that's so delicious.

[IntrepidFromDC]

2 hours ago, TNcruising02 said:

I think the people at Carnival must know something to do an interview stating they will start with vaccinated people.

Agreed!

[kdr69]

7 minutes ago, firefly333 said:

I try to stick to ok, the mediation failed

arrrrghhh, everyone keeps mentioning this but i havent seen or heard any news articles about it?  Can someone please point me to this news?