Why Isn't HAL Adding New Ships to Their Fleet

[mcrcruiser]

We see that Princess is adding are ships however ,HAL is not  . Why is this happening ? 

 

 TIA

Edited December 14, 2023 by mcrcruiser

[Boatdrill]

Well....they have 11 ships. Do they need more ?  

[POA1]

Carnival corporation has not added any new builds to the schedule. There may be a ship or two in the pipeline, and three Costa ships are being transferred to CCL (Venizia, Luminosa & Firenza, I think. Or Nina, Pinto and Ford Festiva. Not 100% sure.)

 

There was this pandemic thing and governments shut down their economies. In order to survive, cruise lines had to take on massive debt. While the lines are paying down their debt at a good clip, it will likely be a while until there is capital for fleet expansion.

 

The pandemic was in the news, but you might have missed it.

[rj59]

They did add 3 new ships of a newer class, Princess is simply delayed in bring in a similar larger ship. They also got rid of several ships during the pandemic, but kept two of the smaller ships around, with 1400 or so pax, quite welcome now in the era of overfull ships and larger and larger ones. When they do get new ships, though, I'd hope they'd go against the larger-ship trend, as NCL has done for Prima/Viva, and bring back wraparound promenade decks without lifeboats blocking views. Oh, and I'd like them to bring back production shows and casts, which every other line but them has. That would be better for me than any new ship, since I thought Koningsdam was a beautiful ship with a beautiful theater that was wasted with garbage entertainment. 

[Blackduck59]

9 minutes ago, Boatdrill said:

Well....they have 11 ships. Do they need more ?  

Definitely a valid point. So many people chime in about the HAL fleet being "old", the oldest ship in the fleet is 24 years old. They have been refitted with new ships systems and have had several refits through the years to upgrade the passenger spaces. RMS Queen Mary was in service for 31 years and is still an icon today. HMY Britannia was in service for 41 years and is a floating museum today.

The entire fleet is well maintained and the "small" size of the ships in the fleet are a draw for many people.

You could take a ship out of service and completely redo all the interior compartments, and update mechanicals for a fraction of the cost of a new build.

[HappyInVan]

There is some concern that the older HAL ships lack the wow factor...

 

https://boards.cruisecritic.com/topic/2978681-what-holland-america-cruise-ships-could-look-like-in-20-years-ai-generated/#comment-66571446

 

It is not possible to properly refit the old ships, because HAL would not be willing to allow the downtime for a fully refit. The regular drydocks typically last only a week or two. The consequence is that the hot water is not always available on the Noordam. Or, that successive interior redecorations (Volendam) don't harmoniously fit together. 

 

The economic consequence is that HAL ships lose the $$$$ clientele while catering to budget pax.

[Blackduck59]

It is possible to refit old ships and not all work has to be done in a "Drydock". Cunard took QE2 (the one that is Dubai now) was taken out of service to completely replace her propulsion system during her cruising life. I wonder how much it would cost to take a ship out of service for say 3 months and do a proper refit and interior restyle as opposed to the 480 million euros it cost to build the newest HAL ship MS Rotterdam.

[hrhdhd]

I don't need a "wow" factor, especially if the factor is "Wow, that ship is big and ugly," which I said yesterday about the Carnival Celebration.

[Alphen]

1 hour ago, Blackduck59 said:

It is possible to refit old ships and not all work has to be done in a "Drydock". Cunard took QE2 (the one that is Dubai now) was taken out of service to completely replace her propulsion system during her cruising life. I wonder how much it would cost to take a ship out of service for say 3 months and do a proper refit and interior restyle as opposed to the 480 million euros it cost to build the newest HAL ship MS Rotterdam.

It has been done recently with a former HAL ship, the Statendam is now sailing as Vasco da Gama. Next to obvious interior refits there have been extensive technical refits, including engines general overhaul. Vasco Ga Gama now burns low-sulphur  MGO (marine gas oil) and all five engines are now fitted with SCR catalysers, which reduce nitrogen oxides by up to 80 percent. Apparently they are now within new regulations that also cover the strict environmental rules for Norway, to sail there after new rules are implemented in 2025.They have also updated wastewater systems.

 

Source for this is the current owners website; Nicko Cruises and there should be an extensive article about the refit, which I cannot find anymore.

 

Edited December 14, 2023 by Alphen

[CruiserBruce]

Hmmm...in one breath people are screaming HAL and Carnival has too much debt and is in doubt of survival, may have to sell of a brand or two, and in the next, complaining they aren't building enough new ships. One wonders.

[Ipeeinthepools]

9 minutes ago, CruiserBruce said:

Hmmm...in one breath people are screaming HAL and Carnival has too much debt and is in doubt of survival, may have to sell of a brand or two, and in the next, complaining they aren't building enough new ships. One wonders.

 

And others complain that HAL is raising prices to pay down the debt.

[Gail & Marty sailing away]

25 minutes ago, CruiserBruce said:

Hmmm...in one breath people are screaming HAL and Carnival has too much debt and is in doubt of survival, may have to sell of a brand or two, and in the next, complaining they aren't building enough new ships. One wonders.

Well said ...

[chengkp75]

Lots of talk of "refitting" an old ship, but I'm not sure what is meant by that?  New hotel facilities?  New engines?  When QE2 was taken out of service to change from steam to diesel, it was out of service for 6 months.  With the current debt load the cruise lines carry, that is just not economically feasible.  Remember, the UK government lent the vast majority of the cost of QE2, at below par rates.

5 hours ago, Alphen said:

including engines general overhaul. Vasco Ga Gama now burns low-sulphur  MGO (marine gas oil) and all five engines are now fitted with SCR catalysers,

Virtually any marine diesel engine built in the last 40 years can operate on MGO, so that was no big deal.  Installing SCR catalyzers is simple, much like putting exhaust gas scrubbers into the funnels of many cruise ships.

 

5 hours ago, Alphen said:

They have also updated wastewater systems.

Again, these are systems that have been around for thirty years or so.

 

But, the major reason that older ships are not economic is steel and corrosion.  History has shown that the relationship between maintenance cost and life span is not linear, but exponential, and at the 15 year mark, the maintenance costs "turn the corner" and start to soar.  Why?  Because at that point, the class societies, that certify the ships as seaworthy, start to require massive amounts of non-destructive testing during dry dock periods (which shift from 5 years to 2.5 years).  This "NDT" consists of thousands of ultrasonic thickness measurements of steel plating in the hull and decks, as well as framing, tank bulkheads and piping.  It also includes x-ray imaging of welds that hold the hull together.  Any reduction of thickness in steel beyond set limits, or any corrosion of welds, requires replacement of the steel.  Since this is not determined until the dry dock is happening, it cannot be scheduled or budgeted for, and leads to cost and time overruns, and delays in getting back to service.  You can update the hotel all you want, and update the engines (though these engines are torn down for complete overhaul every 2 years in service, and are essentially new engines every 2 years), but you will still have an old hull that costs a whole lot to maintain.

 

The operators of these older ships cut their profit margin to the bone to keep operating, and this includes going with less than prestigious P&I insurance clubs to keep the premiums down, but this also lowers the coverage.  Should a catastrophe happen, these companies will fold, unable to cover the cost of something like the Concordia.

[Sir PMP]

There are 3 new ones on their way:

[HappyInVan]

7 hours ago, Blackduck59 said:

It is possible to refit old ships and not all work has to be done in a "Drydock". Cunard took QE2 (the one that is Dubai now) was taken out of service to completely replace her propulsion system during her cruising life. I wonder how much it would cost to take a ship out of service for say 3 months and do a proper refit and interior restyle as opposed to the 480 million euros it cost to build the newest HAL ship MS Rotterdam.

 

Interestingly, Cunard just has three ships in service. The oldest being 20 years old, and adding a new ship next yea!

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cunard_Line#Current_fleet

 

Princess Cruises transfers their 20-year ships to P&O Australia...

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%26O_Cruises_Australia#Current_fleet

[cbr663]

My guess is the environmental shock that is currently unfolding in the cruise industry has a part to play in deciding if you order a ship, what type and size of ship do you order to ensure a 30 year sailing life?

 

More and more ports are pushing back against the large number of cruise passengers being on loaded in their communities.  How much momentum will this continue to pick up and what will its impact be on larger ships?  Coupled with this is the move away from  fossil fuels to clean energy and does it make sense to continue to build a ship whose lifeline may be very limited?

 

I am glad that I am not the cruise line executive that has to make these decisions.

[Pickalily, Wilts]

1 hour ago, Sir PMP said:

There are 3 new ones on their way:

 

Passengers sailing one of those will definitely be 'going green' - in more than one way! 🤢

[HappyInVan]

43 minutes ago, cbr663 said:

My guess is the environmental shock that is currently unfolding in the cruise industry has a part to play in deciding if you order a ship, what type and size of ship do you order to ensure a 30 year sailing life?

 

 

Currently, a number of small operators are adding medium Next Gen ships to their fleet. They're investing in the future, not running their current ships into the ground.

 

For example, MSC has started the Explora brand with new 60k ton ships. This is what HAL needs to regain its positioning as a destinations and service company. Of course, without the waterfalls, fine dining and cognac. 

 

https://www.cruisecritic.com/cruise/explora/explora-i

At this time, HAL is selling inside cabins for C$100/pp per day. Competing with the big ships with better economies of scale. IMO, this is not sustainable.

Edited December 14, 2023 by HappyInVan

[cruisemom42]

This is a non-issue.

 

HAL has a new class of ships, two of which were launched just preceding (Nieuw Statendam) and immediately after (Rotterdam) the pandemic. These two ships practically still have that new ship smell.

 

HAL shed several older ships at the start of the pandemic:  Maasdam, Veendam, Rotterdam, and Amsterdam. (To mixed reviews, I might add.)

 

According to Wikipedia, HAL's oldest ship is the Volendam, launched in 1999. For comparison, Princess oldest ship (Grand Princess) was launched in 1998, and her two smaller ships (Island and Coral Princess) in 2002 and 2003 respectively.  Similarly, the Celebrity M class ships were all launched between 2002-2004. These two lines, IMO, are HAL's closest competitors. 

 

Finally, HAL's announced focus is on longer cruises. If that is truly the case, they probably intend to keep their fleet smaller than lines that only sail weekly (or shorter) itineraries year-round in the Caribbean, Mexico and Alaska. 

 

 

[terrydtx]

If there was a way to add more specialty restaurants like Tamarind to the older ships along with dedicated Club Orange dining rooms, there would be no need to build newer ships, IMO. We sailed on the Koningsdam in November with CO and fell in love with HAL again. CO provided more of the elevated level of service we are used to with the Retreat on Celebrity. We are booked on the Volendam with CO next year, not for the ship but the itinerary of the cruise. Other than the Volendam next year, it would be very hard for us to book any HAL cruise that is not a Pinnacle Class ship.

[Roz]

Agree with @terrydtx. If there was a way to put things like the Dutch Cafe and Tamarind on current ships, and upgrade the entertainment, I would be happy.  

 

I won't sail the Zaandam or Volendam, no matter how attractive the itinerary.  The thought of being stuck on either of those ships for more than 2 weeks is too much to bear. 

 

More and more ports are pushing back on cruise ships,  putting the mega ships at a distinct disadvantage. 

[billco]

12 hours ago, mcrcruiser said:

We see that Princess is adding are ships however ,HAL is not  . Why is this happening ? 

 

 TIA

The contracts for the new Princess Sun and Star were let before the Pandemic.

[Roz]

I was surprised when I heard Carnival Corporation was transferring the 3 Costa ships to Carnival.  I would have thought they would have blended in more with the HAL or Princess fleet. 

[sambamama]

I would much rather sail on the Volendam than the Koningsdam any day.  I want my Promenade deck open and able to walk completely around the ship.  I want my ship smaller rather than bigger.  I don't want a ship to sell me a single cabin and charge me almost the same price as a regular cabin and have it be half the size.  I tried to sail on the Maasdam, and the Ryndam as much as possible.  I was on the Veendam, but hated it as they butchered her by putting the extension in the middle and taking out the aft pool.  I don't want to sail with 7000 of my closest friends, and I don't want to tender to every port.  I very much regret I never got to sail on the Prinsendam.  And I am thrilled that I am sailing on the old Ryndam which was bought by Celestyal Cruises this fall when I sail around Greece.

[cbr663]

1 hour ago, HappyInVan said:

 

Currently, a number of small operators are adding medium Next Gen ships to their fleet. They're investing in the future, not running their current ships into the ground.

 

For example, MSC has started the Explora brand with new 60k ton ships. This is what HAL needs to regain its positioning as a destinations and service company. Of course, without the waterfalls, fine dining and cognac. 

 

https://www.cruisecritic.com/cruise/explora/explora-i

At this time, HAL is selling inside cabins for C$100/pp per day. Competing with the big ships with better economies of scale. IMO, this is not sustainable.

I also don’t think it’s sustainable.  I don’t know what the future is for the current design of cruise ship.  It’s a relic from the past that has a very limited future imo.  
 

I recently experienced the frustration of having substantial port changes made to booked HAL cruises, so much so that I no longer trust the advertised itineraries and currently don’t have any future cruises booked.  Reviewing other threads and social media sites I see this is occurring across all cruise lines.  Read one just a couple days ago of a person frustrated with Regent dropping 6 of the 10 ports on a cruise and adding 3 nights in the disembarkation port instead.  It really does seem that the push back has caught the cruise industry by surprise.  And yes, this poster cancelled the cruise.