Edge Overpriced???

[richsea]

9 hours ago, Hlitner said:

Then you will need to start writing letters to your Congress folks and Senators.  The Passenger Vessel Services Act of 1886 (PVSA) (which is sometimes incorrectly referred to as the Jones Act) specifically prohibits that type of itinerary.  We do agree that an East Coast itinerary would be a good thing.  So why would the PVSA prohibit your idea?  Unless I am horribly mistaken, the PVSA requires a stop at a "distant" foreign port.  The Bahamas and many Caribbean ports do not meet that "distant" definition.  They  could do it with a stop at Aruba but that would mean a pretty long cruise.  We just returned from a 10 day Regal Princess cruise (we have taken this same cruise for the past 5 years) which cruises between NYC and Ft Lauderdale.  But that cruise complies with the PVSA by having a stop in Aruba (some previous cruises have stopped in Curacao).  The so-called "ABC" islands do qualify as distant foreign ports.

 

Hank

Sorry, but I don’t think that is correct. Just do a check of Bahamas cruises and you will find many, many of them that start and end in  the US, with the only foreign port being the Bahamas. 

Edited November 13, 2018 by richsea

[TFLG]

The 2020 prices are considerably less than the 2019s.  About $1000/pp less for a balcony. It's still expensive compared to the S-Class though. Spring 2020 prices, balconies starting at $1120 on the Equinox vs $1700 on the Edge.  So it's still a 50% premium to sail the Edge.   So the prices a year+ out are not too bad.  I just spent a similar amount to sail on the new Bliss (beautiful ship BTW).

 

Edited November 13, 2018 by TFLG

[yorky]

14 hours ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

I've been watching the suite availability for our Edge cruise on Jan. 20.  For a while there were only Sky Suites.  then an Edge Villa and a Penthouse Suite popped up:  each nearly $17,000 (pp) for 7 days.  The Edge Villa was snapped up in a few days.  So: overpriced?  Not if it sells like this!  [And obviously the strongly held opinions on this thread didn't stop someone from deciding that $17,000 was a reasonable price ]

The plain fact is it is overpriced for the Celebrity product, if it was not the price would remain the same for the following year which I guarantee they won’t. It’s just a matter of how many people are willing to pay for that overpriced product and the value to them.

[jagoffee]

11 hours ago, Hlitner said:

Then you will need to start writing letters to your Congress folks and Senators.  The Passenger Vessel Services Act of 1886 (PVSA) (which is sometimes incorrectly referred to as the Jones Act) specifically prohibits that type of itinerary.  We do agree that an East Coast itinerary would be a good thing.  So why would the PVSA prohibit your idea?  Unless I am horribly mistaken, the PVSA requires a stop at a "distant" foreign port.  The Bahamas and many Caribbean ports do not meet that "distant" definition.  They  could do it with a stop at Aruba but that would mean a pretty long cruise.  We just returned from a 10 day Regal Princess cruise (we have taken this same cruise for the past 5 years) which cruises between NYC and Ft Lauderdale.  But that cruise complies with the PVSA by having a stop in Aruba (some previous cruises have stopped in Curacao).  The so-called "ABC" islands do qualify as distant foreign ports.

 

Hank

Hank, I am not an expert.  But I understand that as long as the cruise starts and finishes in the same US port, it does not need to stop at a distant foreign port.  I believe the requirement you are referencing only applies when starting in one US port and finishing in a different US port.  (Like the full transit Panama cruises)

[Mynki]

16 hours ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

I've been watching the suite availability for our Edge cruise on Jan. 20.  For a while there were only Sky Suites.  then an Edge Villa and a Penthouse Suite popped up:  each nearly $17,000 (pp) for 7 days.  The Edge Villa was snapped up in a few days.  So: overpriced?  Not if it sells like this!  [And obviously the strongly held opinions on this thread didn't stop someone from deciding that $17,000 was a reasonable price ]

You raise a valid point. That said the 20th January sailing you mention is sailing in peak season. At the time of writing the Celebrity UK website is reporting the following Sky Suites are still available only 2 months and a week before sail date :-

5 x SS3

19 x SS2

14 X SS1

 

For a Caribbean cruise in peak season that's a very large percentage of available sky suites so close to sail date. So arguably these classes of cabins could well be overpriced. I doubt Miami will be thrilled to see 38 sky suites still for sale. 

 

 

[Luvcrusn]

3 hours ago, richsea said:

Sorry, but I don’t think that is correct. Just do a check of Bahamas cruises and you will find many, many of them that start and end in  the US, with the only foreign port being the Bahamas. 

Agreed, our closed loop Alaska cruise departed and returned to Seattle. The only "distant port" we visited was in Canada, where the ship stopped to satisfy that requirement, however passengers were not allowed to even disembark.

[Hlitner]

7 hours ago, richsea said:

Sorry, but I don’t think that is correct. Just do a check of Bahamas cruises and you will find many, many of them that start and end in  the US, with the only foreign port being the Bahamas. 

Yes, but those cruises are not moving between various US ports.  I was responding to the idea of an East Coast cruise which is an entirely different matter.  In that case I do believe that the "distant foreign port" requirement prevails.  On the other hand, I could certainly be wrong (it would not be the first time).   If an East Coast cruise could satisfy the PVSA by merely stopping in the Bahamas you would likely see many such itineraries.

 

Hank

[ghstudio]

I have not read the four pages of comments on this thread....but the answer is very simple....irrespective of what folks here think, if the ship is full, then Celebrity is not overcharging.  Their business goal is fundamentally to maximize the income from each cruise....a full ship does just that.

 

Vote with your dollars, not emotion.

[richsea]

3 hours ago, Hlitner said:

Yes, but those cruises are not moving between various US ports.  I was responding to the idea of an East Coast cruise which is an entirely different matter.  In that case I do believe that the "distant foreign port" requirement prevails.  On the other hand, I could certainly be wrong (it would not be the first time).   If an East Coast cruise could satisfy the PVSA by merely stopping in the Bahamas you would likely see many such itineraries.

 

Hank

Hank, I went to my on line TA site and called up Bahsma cruise. The first listing was for Vision of the Seas, 7 nights RT out of New Orleans with stops in Miami, Nassau, and Key West. The Anthem also sails RT from Bayonne with stops in Tge Bahamas and Port Canaveral.p, so it must be possible.

[hvsteve1]

What I think people ignore with EDGE pricing is this is an entirely new class of ship.  There is almost nothing on this ship that appears to be recognizable from S Class.  Four distinct main dining rooms, Eden, new specialty restaurants, the seemingly spectacular spa, etc. may justify a (somewhat) higher fare.  As for suites, I don't think you could compare going down to deck five for Luminea, carved out of the MDR and the former pub that is Michael's Club with the new retreat where everything is in one prime section of the ship PLUS a sun deck.  Yes, they are getting a premium for early cruises on a new ship, however look at how much extra you pay to cruise over Christmas due to the seasonal demand.  We're on the Dec. 6 and Dec. 9 cruises and will have a chance to check out all these things and report back. If I'm wrong, I'll say so.

 

As for the PVSA, foreign port stops in Ensinada for a West Coast Cruise where the ship makes it to San Diego in a few hours and Victoria, BC which is also a ferry ride from Seattle, show that it's not distance that counts.  And it is a ridiculous, outdated law that costs millions of dollars to cruise lines (and passengers) and sometimes causes detours that nobody wants.

[richsea]

3 hours ago, ghstudio said:

I have not read the four pages of comments on this thread....but the answer is very simple....irrespective of what folks here think, if the ship is full, then Celebrity is not overcharging.  Their business goal is fundamentally to maximize the income from each cruise....a full ship does just that.

 

Vote with your dollars, not emotion.

If you read the entire thread, you would see that many responses reflect that. But many (including me) feel that Edge is overpriced due to the fact that they can find lots of comparable choices at much lower prices on other mass market lines. When compared in that light, Edge is overpriced. That said, each of us decides what we consider overpriced based upon our personal circumstances. 

[Host Jazzbeau]

9 hours ago, yorky said:

The plain fact is it is overpriced for the Celebrity product, if it was not the price would remain the same for the following year which I guarantee they won’t. It’s just a matter of how many people are willing to pay for that overpriced product and the value to them.

 

Of course Edge prices will go down next year – it will be a used ship then.  That has nothing to do with whether this year's prices, for the unique experience of sailing on a brand new CLASS of ships, is overpriced.

[yorky]

4 hours ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

 

Of course Edge prices will go down next year – it will be a used ship then.  That has nothing to do with whether this year's prices, for the unique experience of sailing on a brand new CLASS of ships, is overpriced.

Well it actually has in my view because it’s exactly the same product a year down the line, same food, same amenities, same entertainment at a far lower price. You are paying an inflated price for the same product because as you say yourself it’s brand new. The value people see in cruising on a brand new ship is a totally different matter, that’s a personal choice but it does not change one very simply fact.

Edited November 14, 2018 by yorky

[Hlitner]

9 hours ago, richsea said:

Hank, I went to my on line TA site and called up Bahsma cruise. The first listing was for Vision of the Seas, 7 nights RT out of New Orleans with stops in Miami, Nassau, and Key West. The Anthem also sails RT from Bayonne with stops in Tge Bahamas and Port Canaveral.p, so it must be possible.

One needs to be a lawmaker to unravel the silly regulations.  The PVSA essentially says you cannot transport passengers "between USA ports" unless you stop at a distant foreign port.  Both Puerto Rico and the USVI are exempt from the PVSA restrictions.  

 

The issue you raise is one of those silly rules that nobody understands (expect ChengKP who might see this and add to the posting fun).  A cruise that begins and ends at the same US Port is permitted to stop at another US Port (i.e. Key West) as long as it also stops at "any foreign port."  But that cruise you mentioned that stops at Key West could not also make another stop at a USA port such as Norfolk.  There are some excellent web site resources that explain this in depth, but posting the links would likely be a violation of the CC rules.

 

However, there is a brief explanation on CC at 

https://www.cruisecritic.com/articles.cfm?ID=3363

 

While somewhat simplistic this does deal with your question.  If you are a masochist you might want to look up the actual PVSA Legislation along with the Jones Act (don't forget to look for any later amendments) and spend a few hours reading through page after page of gobbledygook!    Of course the cruise lines employ expensive legal firms to deal with all this garbage :(.

 

Hank

 

[Cruise Junky]

1 hour ago, Hlitner said:

One needs to be a lawmaker to unravel the silly regulations.  The PVSA essentially says you cannot transport passengers "between USA ports" unless you stop at a distant foreign port.  Both Puerto Rico and the USVI are exempt from the PVSA restrictions.  

 

The issue you raise is one of those silly rules that nobody understands (expect ChengKP who might see this and add to the posting fun).  A cruise that begins and ends at the same US Port is permitted to stop at another US Port (i.e. Key West) as long as it also stops at "any foreign port."  But that cruise you mentioned that stops at Key West could not also make another stop at a USA port such as Norfolk.  There are some excellent web site resources that explain this in depth, but posting the links would likely be a violation of the CC rules.

 

However, there is a brief explanation on CC at 

https://www.cruisecritic.com/articles.cfm?ID=3363

 

While somewhat simplistic this does deal with your question.  If you are a masochist you might want to look up the actual PVSA Legislation along with the Jones Act (don't forget to look for any later amendments) and spend a few hours reading through page after page of gobbledygook!    Of course the cruise lines employ expensive legal firms to deal with all this garbage :(.

 

Hank

 

of course you could stop at Norfolk as long a you`ve hit a foreign port somewhere along the route.  It doesn`t mean you have to hit a foreign port between every single US port you visit.  As long a the journey involves some foreign port along the way and you start and end in the same US port, you^re good..

[Host Jazzbeau]

13 hours ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

 

Of course Edge prices will go down next year – it will be a used ship then.  That has nothing to do with whether this year's prices, for the unique experience of sailing on a brand new CLASS of ships, is overpriced.

 

8 hours ago, yorky said:

Well it actually has in my view because it’s exactly the same product a year down the line, same food, same amenities, same entertainment at a far lower price. You are paying an inflated price for the same product because as you say yourself it’s brand new. The value people see in cruising on a brand new ship is a totally different matter, that’s a personal choice but it does not change one very simply fact.

 

Then I'd like to sell you my 2008 BMW – for the original list price.  It's exactly the same product ten years down the line, same engine, same interior, same performance.  So I guess it should still be worth the same as I paid.

[yorky]

1 hour ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

 

 

Then I'd like to sell you my 2008 BMW – for the original list price.  It's exactly the same product ten years down the line, same engine, same interior, same performance.  So I guess it should still be worth the same as I paid.

I think you probably know yourself comparing a 10 year old car to a 12 month old ship is probably not the best comparison you could have made given on a ship the food, drinks, entertainment, staff, don’t age.

[Quo Vadis?]

15 hours ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

 

Of course Edge prices will go down next year – it will be a used ship then.  That has nothing to do with whether this year's prices, for the unique experience of sailing on a brand new CLASS of ships, is overpriced.

Does that mean hotel prices go down every year because the beds have been used?

Does that mean the service on board will have declined because the staff doesn't have to respond as well to passengers?

Does that mean that all the ports visited will have declined in appeal?

 

There are too many variables on a ship to compare it to any car.

[Host Jazzbeau]

46 minutes ago, yorky said:

I think you probably know yourself comparing a 10 year old car to a 12 month old ship is probably not the best comparison you could have made given on a ship the food, drinks, entertainment, staff, don’t age.

 

Actually, there is less rust on my car than on the 1 year old Viking Sun ship we were on in August.  And you have forgotten all the threads on Cruise Critic with people worrying about "should I book on xxx because it's an older ship" – by which they sometimes mean only a few years!  Anything brand new tends to sell at a premium for a while – new car models often go above list until the early demand is satisfied.  That exclusivity is part of the value that people are willing to pay for.  My point on this thread is that "overpriced" doesn't mean the same as "overpriced for my taste" – it can only be measured by whether the cruise line is maximizing revenue.  Edge doesn't have to sell out at these prices for Celebrity to maximize revenue.  When Apex comes on line, Edge prices will go down – but maybe never as low as M-class prices because lots of people do avoid older ships.  

[The_Big_M]

9 hours ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

 

 

Then I'd like to sell you my 2008 BMW – for the original list price.  It's exactly the same product ten years down the line, same engine, same interior, same performance.  So I guess it should still be worth the same as I paid.

 

There's a difference between a good for personal consumption/use, and an external service, where a cruise is more about the surrounding experience and inclusions than just the ship.

 

[The_Big_M]

7 hours ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

 

My point on this thread is that "overpriced" doesn't mean the same as "overpriced for my taste" – it can only be measured by whether the cruise line is maximizing revenue.  Edge doesn't have to sell out at these prices for Celebrity to maximize revenue.

 

While maximising revenue is one financial metric, that doesn't mean it isn't overpriced. You're conflating a seller's view of pricing with a buyer's.

 

Certainly to a seller that means it isn't overpriced - they still have managed to sell at that price, hence the price is not what over what it needs to be to achieve sufficient sales. However, buyers have multiple perspectives - given they have different situations - and their view is not wrong either. It may even be the majority view that it is overpriced, just that there are sufficient outliers to purchase a limited number at an overly high price that they achieve majority sales. Thus, the market may see it as overpriced, but it still sells out.

 

In a limited, or unique situation, that may be fine for a brand's ongoing operations. If a brand regularly overprices what the majority of its target market assesses it as, it makes them less relevant to that target market as they perceive them no longer value. Meanwhile those higher payers are not likely to stay around as they've left for the next flashy thing...

 

[Host Jazzbeau]

I've just been reading a thread on the HAL board about their new 'Club Orange' offering where cruisers in any level of cabin can pay $50 pp/pd to get many of the 5-star and suite amenities.  The 4- and 5-star members are up in arms about how this debases the loyalty benefits they paid so much to 'earn.'  But IMO we are witnessing a second watershed in the 21st Century cruise industry.  Starting in 2008 the cruise lines were doing everything they could to maintain market share – keeping prices low and ships full by cutting costs year after year.  Now that the economy is booming again, they have collectively decided that it's time to maximize revenue.  And, sorry for some folks here, elite loyalty members who sail in the cheapest cabins and use their loyalty perks to avoid spending any money onboard are not the customers they want any more.  Thus the focus on line after line has been on increasing revenue from the point of booking – with more suites (and more reasons to book a suite) and new ships with more bells and whistles that justify higher cabin prices across the board.  That's where Edge-class fits in and why I don't expect Edge prices to drop that much from this year.  Yes, some of the people on this thread will leave Celebrity – but they will be replaced by new customers who don't get any loyalty benefits and therefore spend more onboard (which is exactly what Celebrity wants).  

[Hlitner]

When it comes to pricing, it is a big cruise industry with many options.  So consider that we have a Seabourn cruise booked that costs us about $460 per passenger day.  Seabourn is an all-inclusive all suite line generally seen as being in the ultra-luxury niche of cruising.  If we look at a simple Sky Suite on an S-class ship in the same market (Alaska) it prices out over $600 per passenger day with a drink package and pre paid gratutites.  So doing a side by side comparison, X is charging over 40% more, per passenger day, then a small ship luxury line.  Now consider on Seabourn you will get better quality booze and wine then on the Classic drink package of X, and you can use your booze to wash down things like Caviar (no extra charge).  And dining is at a far higher quality then you get on X.

 

  Now if you start looking at the Edge Pricing for small suites, it is often near $600 per passenger day (including drink package).   You could compare a Sky Suite on X with a regular balcony on a line like Crystal (a sky suite is a few feet larger) and find that its actually less expensive to cruise on Crystal then Celebrity once you get to the X suite category.  We have cruised on Celebrity many times and we have cruised on Crystal.  There is just no comparison between the lines.  X is a decent mass market line but does not match up with the luxury lines on much.  Consider that the Celebrity Serenity has a passenger space ratio of more then 70 while the Edge has a space ratio of 45.  

 

Just fruit for thought.

 

Hank

[MizDemeanor]

It’s all about service levels and amenities for me. I’ll pay for both. If either are lacking then it’s not the line for me anymore no matter what line it is. 

[hcat]

On 11/12/2018 at 3:42 PM, Denny01 said:

Not sure if you mean MSC or Celebrity, or both, but I agree with Celebrity needing to ‘up the game’. I’d love to see an extended sea time to go further south to various Windward/Leeward Lesser Antilles (love to throw those names in - but the southeastern islands). And what about an East Coast cruise up and back along a lot of neat US ports? With a quick strop in Nassau to meet the foreign port requirements?

 

We’ve done the West Coast and and back 4 times and would love to stop in Savannah, Charleston, Wilmington and further and then back. That type of itinerary. 

 

Den

 

 

 

East coast  cruise is one of our hopes..We loved doing the Pacific Coastal..on Infinity

The Grandeur does  an E coast itin from Balto...includes Charleston,

Bermuda,  Space Center on some itins..Oceania had one for this itin but dates did not work for us..

 

 There's also something on the American Cruise line(?)...but Celeb would be our preference..Maybe we will luck out ine of these days!