Does the ships crew really get !00% of the gratuities?

[RocketMan275]

7 minutes ago, ed01106 said:

That is the reason for the suspicion. 

 

Based on how much the cruise lines charge in gratuities for drinks--  bar tenders should be making a hundred dollars an hour or more *IF* they were getting 100% of the gratuities.  The fact that they make such low pay is what raises the suspicion that the cruise line is taking a cut or using the money for other purposes.  

Do you really think bartenders are making fifty drinks per hour?  All day long, no slack periods?

[RocketMan275]

1 hour ago, Hlitner said:

Their point of view is that folks should be paid a "living wage" and it is not the responsibility. 

Hank

I've yet to encounter anyone who can define a "living wage" for crew ship personnel.  For example, just consider how many countries are represented by the crew.  Should the "living wage" be based upon the country of origin? 

 

JMHO, but those who complain about the HSC want the cruise line to do away with the HSC, increase the crew wage, all without raising fares.  IOW, the cruise line is making too much money and they could have cheaper cruises  if the cruise line reduced their profits.

 

And, it's been my experience that when people start talking about the 'principle of the thing' they're really talking about what is in their best interest.

[ed01106]

1 minute ago, RocketMan275 said:

Do you really think bartenders are making fifty drinks per hour?  All day long, no slack periods?

 

There is ebbs and flows.  At times they are pumping out more than 100 drinks an hour.  At times is probably drops down to 10 or 15 an hour. 

 

But given how much the cruise line adds to my bill for gratuities and how little the crew makes raises the suspicion that not all the money is going to the crew.     

 

[gerryuk]

Just to add fuel to the fire, it seems to me, reading and contributing to this board that Americans are happy to tip on cruises and have a problem with us Brits, Europeans and Australians who simply refuse to be part of this madness.

The vast majority of staff on these cruise lines are not American, the ships themselves are probably registered anywhere but America. For us Brits, Europeans and Australians, when we want to book a cruise on, lets say NCL in the Caribbean, we cant book on the American site, we are redirected to the site in the UK, and that's where we pay. For us there is very little American about cruising. Now if all the staff on these ships were American and the ships were American, then I can see the point of tipping, as I am in your country and amercing myself into your way of doing things. However the way the cruise business is set up there is very little American about this business as a whole, so I will opt out. 

[ed01106]

27 minutes ago, gerryuk said:

Just to add fuel to the fire, it seems to me, reading and contributing to this board that Americans are happy to tip on cruises and have a problem with us Brits, Europeans and Australians who simply refuse to be part of this madness.

The vast majority of staff on these cruise lines are not American, the ships themselves are probably registered anywhere but America. For us Brits, Europeans and Australians, when we want to book a cruise on, lets say NCL in the Caribbean, we cant book on the American site, we are redirected to the site in the UK, and that's where we pay. For us there is very little American about cruising. Now if all the staff on these ships were American and the ships were American, then I can see the point of tipping, as I am in your country and amercing myself into your way of doing things. However the way the cruise business is set up there is very little American about this business as a whole, so I will opt out. 

 

IMHO, if you are taking a cruise on an American brand (such as Carnival) that arrives and departs from a USA port (such as Miami)  then you should follow American culture.  If you are taking a cruise on a UK brand (such as Cunard) that leaves and arrives in London then you should follow UK culture.  If you are taking a cruise on an Australian line (such as P&O Australia) that leaves and departs from Sydney you should follow Australian culture  regardless of what country you are from.

 

No different than an American shouldn't tip at a restaurant in Sydney and an Australian should tip at a restaurant in NYC.   

Edited January 7, 2020 by ed01106

[NLH Arizona]

1 hour ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

I agree with this, but I am often surprised at how one-sided the argument seems to be. We Americans want everyone else to understand and abide by our tipping culture, yet when I try to tell Americans going to Italy, for example, that tipping such as is done in the US is neither expected nor part of the culture in that part of Europe, I often get disparaging comments such as "Well, no one turned down my tip!"

 

That is not the point at all. Of course someone is not going to turn down your tip. (Except possibly in Japan.) But it's not a tipping CULTURE and we shouldn't import our cultural practices to such an extent that we change local practice for the people who actually live and work there. Servers, drivers, tour guides et al are paid a living wage and are not expected to make up the remainder in tips. If someone really goes all out and you want to express appreciation, a small tip is fine. But 10% and upward? No.

 

For Americans, tipping feels good and comfortable. Many cannot leave their tipping habits behind. But "when in Rome" applies equally to all sides. 

 

 

I'm sure there are as many Americans as there those from non-tipping countries, that travel and don't give a rat's behind about the culture of the countries.  All it takes is a little research. 

[MicCanberra]

Of course there are always the outliers to any countries population who do not fit in with a national stereotype.

[GUT2407]

48 minutes ago, ed01106 said:

 

IMHO, if you are taking a cruise on an American brand (such as Carnival) that arrives and departs from a USA port (such as Miami)  then you should follow American culture.  If you are taking a cruise on a UK brand (such as Cunard) that leaves and arrives in London then you should follow UK culture.  If you are taking a cruise on an Australian line (such as P&O Australia) that leaves and departs from Sydney you should follow Australian culture  regardless of what country you are from.

 

No different than an American shouldn't tip at a restaurant in Sydney and an Australian should tip at a restaurant in NYC.   

I wish you could convince the Americans that they shouldn’t tip in Sydney. And if you bring it to their attention the comment is usually something like “they took it” duh?

[GUT2407]

When auto grats (or whatever you may choose to call it line by line) were in place in Aus I left them alone, then AND NOW I frequently tip extra, but not the amounts some on CC claim to tip and only to those who go above and beyond. 
 

I find 20% on drinks to be ridiculous most lines charge about $2.50 for a Diet Coke 20% is 50c for handing me a can or squeezing the trigger on a gun for bout 10 seconds.

[UnorigionalName]

3 minutes ago, GUT2407 said:

I wish you could convince the Americans that they shouldn’t tip in Sydney. And if you bring it to their attention the comment is usually something like “they took it” duh?

 

You have to understand that tipping is so ingrained into American culture on like a moral basis, that at that point it's not about making the server feel good, it's about making the American not feel like bottom-feeding scum.  Even if they are aware of the culturally appropriate action, to some people it just doesn't feel good to themselves to not tip.

[GUT2407]

1 minute ago, UnorigionalName said:

 

You have to understand that tipping is so ingrained into American culture on like a moral basis, that at that point it's not about making the server feel good, it's about making the American not feel like bottom-feeding scum.  Even if they are aware of the culturally appropriate action, to some people it just doesn't feel good to themselves to not tip.

But if someone from a non tipping culture feels uncomfortable tipping, and believe me it feels totally alien to hand money over for nothing, they are then labeled button feeding scum, or the term seen in CC every day “stiffers”.

[ed01106]

8 minutes ago, GUT2407 said:

I wish you could convince the Americans that they shouldn’t tip in Sydney. And if you bring it to their attention the comment is usually something like “they took it” duh?

I agree American's shouldn't tip in Sydney.  But I an American tipping in Sydney is not nearly as bad as an Australian stiffing the wait staff in NYC for several reasons.

 

1. A couple of Americans leaving tips in Australia isn't going to change the culture.   Just like you not tipping in NYC isn't going to change our culture.  

 

2. The waiter in Sydney is not worse off because of the American's misdeed.  OTOH, the waiter in NYC is.

 

3. If the waiter in Sydney is free to correct the American and refuse the tip.  The waiter in NYC has no recourse.   

 

And BTW I prefer the Australian model.  

[MicCanberra]

22 minutes ago, ed01106 said:

I agree American's shouldn't tip in Sydney.  But I an American tipping in Sydney is not nearly as bad as an Australian stiffing the wait staff in NYC for several reasons.

 

1. A couple of Americans leaving tips in Australia isn't going to change the culture.   Just like you not tipping in NYC isn't going to change our culture.  

 

2. The waiter in Sydney is not worse off because of the American's misdeed.  OTOH, the waiter in NYC is.

 

3. If the waiter in Sydney is free to correct the American and refuse the tip.  The waiter in NYC has no recourse.   

 

And BTW I prefer the Australian model.  

I agree, especially with the last line.

IME, the US eateries and such tend to help Aussies by having suggested tip amounts i.e 15%, 18% and 20% on the checks and some places already incorporate an amount in.

[NLH Arizona]

34 minutes ago, GUT2407 said:

I wish you could convince the Americans that they shouldn’t tip in Sydney. And if you bring it to their attention the comment is usually something like “they took it” duh?

Just as I wish you could convince the Australians to tip in the major tourist areas in the US, as these hard working servers lose so much money because of people who don't come from a tipping culture country.  Sad that we both wish folks would honor our tipping or non-tipping culture.

[RocketMan275]

2 hours ago, ed01106 said:

That is the reason for the suspicion. 

 

Based on how much the cruise lines charge in gratuities for drinks--  bar tenders should be making a hundred dollars an hour or more *IF* they were getting 100% of the gratuities.  The fact that they make such low pay is what raises the suspicion that the cruise line is taking a cut or using the money for other purposes.  

 

2 hours ago, ed01106 said:

 

There is ebbs and flows.  At times they are pumping out more than 100 drinks an hour.  At times is probably drops down to 10 or 15 an hour. 

 

But given how much the cruise line adds to my bill for gratuities and how little the crew makes raises the suspicion that not all the money is going to the crew.     

 

So, you really have no justification for your original claim about how much bartenders make?

The cruise line only adds 20% gratuities for drinks, perhaps $2 per drink.  How much do you drink anyway?

[cruisemom42]

10 minutes ago, ed01106 said:

I agree American's shouldn't tip in Sydney.  But I an American tipping in Sydney is not nearly as bad as an Australian stiffing the wait staff in NYC for several reasons.

 

1. A couple of Americans leaving tips in Australia isn't going to change the culture.   Just like you not tipping in NYC isn't going to change our culture.  

 

 

That's not really true. There are more than "a couple" of Americans traveling all over the world and it has been shown that servers, guides, drivers, etc. come to expect tips uniformly as a result of our tipping practices. See for example:

 

"(In Australia) Because of this, it’s clear to see why the practice of tipping is yet to have distinctive rules and regulations. In many respects, tipping is relatively new and has been brought Down Under by those coming from ‘tipping’ societies, particularly Americans."  https://www.tripsavvy.com/is-tipping-mandatory-in-australia-1464392

 

 

 

 

[MicCanberra]

I just do what has to be done and budget for it.

But personally, it is not the tipping that I find so bad, I think if I want to reward someone then I will. It is the fact that they state how much or what percentage it needs to be that I find ridiculous, in the same way I find mandatory gratuities ridiculous.

 

[NLH Arizona]

18 minutes ago, MicCanberra said:

I just do what has to be done and budget for it.

But personally, it is not the tipping that I find so bad, I think if I want to reward someone then I will. It is the fact that they state how much or what percentage it needs to be that I find ridiculous, in the same way I find mandatory gratuities ridiculous.

 

I totally agree with you about a restaurant stating how much or what percentage to tip.  I don't go by it, I go by the service I receive and tip accordingly.  I don't find any restaurants, that have a mandatory gratuity here, with the exception being Caesar's Place in Las Vegas buffet who automatically charges a gratuity for large parties and many restaurants for parties of 8 or more.

Edited January 7, 2020 by NLH Arizona

[pris993]

19 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

To be clear I wasn't talking about government regulation, that is whole other topic. I was talking about consumer behaviour effecting corporate behaviour. 

I know you were talking about consumer behavior... I just see that as pointless... we obviously see this very differently .  

[Hlitner]

1 hour ago, GUT2407 said:

I wish you could convince the Americans that they shouldn’t tip in Sydney. And if you bring it to their attention the comment is usually something like “they took it” duh?

The first time we traveled to your country, some friends of ours (from Cairns) advised us to refrain from tipping :).  He further explained that Aussies did not appreciate us trying to export our tipping culture.  We did follow your "rules" but must admit that it felt strange to pay the total amount of the check and not a penny more.

 

Here in Puerto Vallarta (our winter home) there is a similar issue regarding tipping culture.  Mexicans generally do not tip taxi drivers or might give them a very small tip (perhaps 5%).  But the North Americans tend to tip the taxi drivers 10-20%.  The result is that some of the taxi drivers will pass by a Mexican trying to get a taxi in favor of North Americans.  By exporting our tipping culture we have caused some difficulty for the locals which is not a good thing.  We have all heard "when in Rome"  which is probably the best advice for travelers.

 

Hank

[notalandlover]

5 hours ago, Hlitner said:

We, in North America, are used to our tipping culture and DSC (auto gratuities) are not a big deal.  But many cruise passengers come from other parts of the world where they do not have a tipping culture and in some countries there are folks who are almost militantly opposed to tipping.  We have met Brits and Aussies who have a big issue with DSC, tips, etc.  Their point of view is that folks should be paid a "living wage" and it is not the responsibility.  Some of these folks tell us that they simply go along with program, but others refuse to have anything to do with DSC, tips, etc.  You will sometimes see these folks at Guest Relations (or at the Concierge Desk in MSC's Yacht Club) asking to have all their auto tips removed!

 

I agree with you that it is very unfair to the crew when some folks exercise the option to remove their DSCs or refuse to tip.  But I do think that this "unfairness" lies with the cruise lines who have created this crazy tipping policy with the knowledge that many of their customers are not going to go along with their system unless it is mandatory.  The obvious solution is to simply eliminate the DSC, auto grats, auto tips, service charges, etc. and include it in the cruise price.  We see this on the higher-end lines and it is a much fairer system to the crew and the passengers.  On Seabourn we actually had one crew member refuse a tip and suggest that we contribute the money to their crew fund :).   This is not uncommon on several of the higher end lines.  

 

We talked on another blog how some cruise lines quickly realized that their DSC policy was not very effective in some parts of the world.  When Princess originally based the Sea Princess in Sydney, Australia...they revamped their fare system to include DSC within the cruise fare.  This was an acknowledgment that the Aussies were not going to accept this type of crazy system.   Too bad they, and other cruise lines, don't simply go to this Australian system.   And we would not need to have any more threads on this topic :).

 

Hank

 

 

Well said Hank.  I hope the cruise lines are following this thread.    Increase the fare so its fair to everyone.  

[UnorigionalName]

5 minutes ago, notalandlover said:

 

 

Well said Hank.  I hope the cruise lines are following this thread.    Increase the fare so its fair to everyone.  

 

The problem is that American's will STILL tip.  That's the factor that makes this abhorrent system stay in place.  You have competing factors here.  You have Americans that WILL tip.  No matter what.  You have cruise line employees seeing if they want to participate in the cruise line labor market.  You have a cruise line trying to maximize incomes.

 

It's not like tipping is new.  The industry has moved towards the auto-grat system because it makes money for them.  It works out in the end for everyone in big numbers since there are thousands of passengers on the ship.  They take into account the statistical tip rate of various non-american and american passengers.  As more people drop out of the auto-grat pool though, they will raise the auto-grat on everyone or will have to raise fares and wages.

 

saying the crew gets "100%" of the gratuities is meaningless anyways.  It's like door-dash.  They'll just pay less income and give more gratuity.  Money is fungible.

[ilikeanswers]

5 hours ago, ed01106 said:

IMHO, if you are taking a cruise on an American brand (such as Carnival) that arrives and departs from a USA port (such as Miami)  then you should follow American culture.  If you are taking a cruise on a UK brand (such as Cunard) that leaves and arrives in London then you should follow UK culture.  If you are taking a cruise on an Australian line (such as P&O Australia) that leaves and departs from Sydney you should follow Australian culture  regardless of what country you are from.

 

It may sound logical to you but the reality is a lot of people don't view a cruise ships as a country. A lot of Europeans are use to travelling country to country and the practice is adopt the local culture whereas a lot of American cruisers a Caribbean cruise is their first international travel. So I think mentally it is easier for Americans to see a Caribbean cruise ship as United States territory whereas Europeans see it more as a tour bus takes you place to place but does not represent the country you are in. And now with cruise companies looking to target the Chinese and Indian market there will be more of a culture clash. The fact is if cruise companies want to be international they need drop some American cultural traits and become more internationally standardised.

[clo]

39 minutes ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

It may sound logical to you but the reality is a lot of people don't view a cruise ships as a country. A lot of Europeans are use to travelling country to country and the practice is adopt the local culture whereas a lot of American cruisers a Caribbean cruise is their first international travel. So I think mentally it is easier for Americans to see a Caribbean cruise ship as United States territory whereas Europeans see it more as a tour bus takes you place to place but does not represent the country you are in. And now with cruise companies looking to target the Chinese and Indian market there will be more of a culture clash. The fact is if cruise companies want to be international they need drop some American cultural traits and become more internationally standardised.

When I travel to any country outside the US - cruise or land - I always research the tipping 'culture.' But I think you're right that the average cruiser may not be the most sophisticated when it comes to such things. I came across an article the other day about things to NOT do with your body when in other countries. You know, like specific hand gestures, touching, etc. 

[ilikeanswers]

31 minutes ago, clo said:

When I travel to any country outside the US - cruise or land - I always research the tipping 'culture.' But I think you're right that the average cruiser may not be the most sophisticated when it comes to such things. I came across an article the other day about things to NOT do with your body when in other countries. You know, like specific hand gestures, touching, etc. 

 

Researching tipping culture in a country is one thing but when you are on cruise ship the problem comes with how the passenger regards territory on the ship itself. I think there is a cultural difference with how cruise ships are viewed. From what I have read a lot of Americans do view cruise ships as floating resorts whereas Europeans see it more as a really comfortable form of transportation, they also come from a culture where country hoping is normal and they have been taught that you adapt for the culture of the country you are in not the transportation you are taking. So I am not surprised that Europeans might be confused why they should tip like an American on a cruise ship that spends 90% of it outside of United States territory. Cruise lines either have to make it clear why there is American style tipping on certain routes (which would defeat the purpose of hiding the costs) or change the system to something that would suit a more international audience.