Does the ships crew really get !00% of the gratuities?

[clo]

3 minutes ago, ilikeanswers said:

Cruise lines either have to make it clear why there is American style tipping on certain routes

Good points. Thanks.

[Hlitner]

47 minutes ago, clo said:

When I travel to any country outside the US - cruise or land - I always research the tipping 'culture.' But I think you're right that the average cruiser may not be the most sophisticated when it comes to such things. I came across an article the other day about things to NOT do with your body when in other countries. You know, like specific hand gestures, touching, etc. 

It is not just about the average cruiser.  We see it when we do extended travel on land.  Some Americans seem to think they can buy popularity if they toss their money around.  Some of our fellow country folk seem to think that they will be liked for tossing around their dollars.  They do not understand that while waiters and staff will accept the money, smile, and even say thank you...behind the scenes they are thinking (and saying) "what a bunch of &&^^).  In a sense it is just more of the Ugly American scenario..

 

We live in a cruise port (for part of the year) and can generally pick out cruise ship passengers by the way they dress, walk, act, etc.  Cruisers are a different breed of traveler (we say this as frequent cruisers) with many having no clue how to behave in foreign countries.  There is a reason why Diamonds International only has stores in cruise ports and is generally pretty empty unless a cruise ship is in port.  Their owner (who is a New Yorker with no stores in New York) understands the cruiser mentality and takes advantage.   In ports, the entrepreneurs also understand the cruiser mentality and take advantage.  Special promotions aimed at cruisers, such as a free charm for your bracelet, is simply a contrived way for a store to clearly identify the cruisers.  Want a decent price in these stores?  Shop there after all the cruise ships are gone.

 

We have often suggested that cruise ship passengers do what they can do to not appear to be cruise ship passengers. Although you are likely going to be ID'd as a tourist, that is a better fate then what faces those ID'd from a cruise ship.   Trust me that if you walk off your ship with your cruise card around your neck and your free shopping bag (with the cruise logo) on your arm..you are likely going to be offered higher prices by everything from taxis to local shops.  I also have another pet peeve.  If a store is a "recommended store" on the ship, I run (not walk) to any other store.  Those "recommended stores" are only recommended because they pay a promotional fee and/or a percentage to the port lecture companies or cruise lines.  Those stores need to recover their "investment" and the easiest way is to get it from the cruisers.

 

Hank 

[clo]

17 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

Some Americans seem to think they can buy popularity if they toss their money around.

I'm going to reply to you and @ilikeanswers tomorrow but I'd like to share a couple of photos. We were in Montenegro on a land tour and, as usual, got as far as possible away from the group. Got a couple of glasses of wine and sat down outside next to several local men. One spoke pretty good English. He took me into a bakery and bought us this yummy thing. And later wrote down his name and phone # in case I needed any help. You get back what you give out 🙂

 

[ilikeanswers]

1 hour ago, Hlitner said:

Some Americans seem to think they can buy popularity if they toss their money around.  Some of our fellow country folk seem to think that they will be liked for tossing around their dollars.  

 

 

There was an American tourist who I got talking to who told me the reason she always tipped 20% no matter the country or culture was because she felt guilty if she didn't🙄. 

[ilikeanswers]

1 hour ago, clo said:

I'm going to reply to you and @ilikeanswers tomorrow but I'd like to share a couple of photos. We were in Montenegro on a land tour and, as usual, got as far as possible away from the group. Got a couple of glasses of wine and sat down outside next to several local men. One spoke pretty good English. He took me into a bakery and bought us this yummy thing. And later wrote down his name and phone # in case I needed any help. You get back what you give out 🙂

 

 

Montenegro is one of my favourite countries🤗. Which city was this? 

[MicCanberra]

1 hour ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

There was an American tourist who I got talking to who told me the reason she always tipped 20% no matter the country or culture was because she felt guilty if she didn't🙄. 

I wish I met her, I would have given her some advice, she may have even help pay off my next cruise.

[mayleeman]

The bartender calculations are distorted by drink packages. Any bartender serving upward of 50 drinks an hour is likely serving many drinkers with a package. Some of those will be drinking less, and some more, in the course of a day than the daily price would cover, and I doubt tips are allocated based on a la carte pricing. The 20% added to the daily package cost if divvied up across lots of drinks could well be far less than an average of $2 per bar drink. Someone who drinks a specialty coffee and a mimosa or two at breakfast, two bottles of Evian during the day, three beers and a Pina Colada at the pool, two glasses of wine plus Pellegrino and a dessert coffee at dinner, will really lower the per drink grat out of a daily grat charge of, say, $12 (20% of $60).

 

In regards to the OP discussing the rise from 18% to 20%, perhaps it really represents an adjustment to reflect the portion of people who remove them.

 

As to feeling "forced to pay," we just figure the grats are a heckuvalot easier for us to afford than they are for service personnel to go without. This is as true at Waffle House as it is on a cruise. Part of our total restaurant budget just as it is part of our total cruise budget.

 

Edited January 8, 2020 by mayleeman

[Hlitner]

11 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

There was an American tourist who I got talking to who told me the reason she always tipped 20% no matter the country or culture was because she felt guilty if she didn't🙄. 

There is a relatively new term "guilt tipping" that is growing in usage on the Internet.  The term seems to have a few different related meanings including what was expressed by that tourist.  I think of it as another case of the "Ugly American" syndrome where many Americans seem to think its fine to export many of our own mores (I love this word).  While I can understand this happening out of ignorance (most Americans do not travel extensively outside their own country) but it is truly "Ugly" when some folks think "our ways are better then yours so we will force our ways into your own culture."  There actually was a pretty active movement in France to fight back against Americanization of the French culture (we actually saw a demonstration at the McDonalds on the Champs Elysees.  I think that movement has mostly died since the French now have much bigger problems.

 

But I would offer this advice to my fellow travelers.  When you go to a foreign country enjoy the local culture, cuisine, drinks, etc.  Don't go to France and order a burger, or go to Italy and have fried chicken!  And for heavens sake, do not take food and drink off a cruise ship so you can avoid buying local food and drink.  Consider not taking the large cruise line excursions, and instead, go off on your own, enjoy being among locals (as opposed to among 60 other cruisers), eat at restaurants that do not have reserved sections for cruise groups, etc.  And yes, I realize that this kind of advice falls on deaf ears (or blind eyes).

 

Hank

[ed01106]

13 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

 Europeans see it more as a really comfortable form of transportation, and they have been taught that you adapt for the culture of the country you are in not the transportation you are taking. 

I am going to call BS on that.

 

I will start by saying there is a huge difference between ignorance, misunderstanding and habit vs willfully choosing to demand that every other country adapt to your cultural style.

 

If an American A is in Sydney receives a bill for $83 AUS and leaves a $100 AUS bill on the table and leaves without waiting for change out of habit that is one thing.  On the other hand if American B gets an $83 bill hands the waiter his credit card and when he goes to sign the bill he asks where is the line to add a tip and is told that "we don't do that in Australia"  He responds by leaving a tip in cash on the table (in US currency).    A made a mistake.  B is demanding Australia become the USA.

 

Likewise if an Australian not realizing you tip the shuttle driver in USA doesn't tip the shuttle driver that brings him from the airport to the cruise ship stiffs the driver, that is a mistake.  On the other hand if he is on a cruise with auto-grats and goes to the burser to have them removed, that is a demand that this cruise ship adapt his home countries cultural style.  

 

The excuse of  "I didn't realize I was suppose to follow American tipping culture on a ship with autograts" is a lie.  This is not a lack of knowledge or cultural awareness.   No mistake was made.  You can't take a cruise that begins and ends in the USA and has autograts on the bill and pretend like you didn't think that you were expected to pay them.  

[clo]

47 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

go off on your own, enjoy being among locals

That's the only way we travel. Even when we were with an escorted land tour. Even when there was an included meal.

 

I appreciate your very articulate reply. I wonder what those who are afraid of that kind of travel think/feel when they read something like that.

[Hlitner]

14 minutes ago, clo said:

That's the only way we travel. Even when we were with an escorted land tour. Even when there was an included meal.

 

I appreciate your very articulate reply. I wonder what those who are afraid of that kind of travel think/feel when they read something like that.

I guess they are still afraid :).  There is nothing we can do to alleviate their fears and we assume they are comfortable with their own demons.  A few years ago, while on a long cruise we had an eye opening experience when a lovely couple ask us to help them plan some DIY days ashore (in Western Europe).  We spend several hours with these folks (often over cocktails) and gave them lots of detailed step-by-step instructions on how to get from Point A to Point B, how to use local buses, etc.   In the end they did not do anything on their own and took cruise line excursions in every port.  They told us they were miserable but were simply afraid to do anything (off the ship) on their own.  The man actually said they spent more money on excursions then on the actual cruise ticket and they did not enjoy most of their excursions.

 

That taught me that some folks cannot easily overcome their internal fears/demons and that is just the way it is!   I will admit that after a lifetime of independent travel (on cruises and land) there have been some days when DW and I wished we had taken a tour  or (gasp) even a cruise ship excursion.  Bad days happen but they are few and far between.  But whenever we must take a ship excursion (because there are no other options) we are reminded why we have a very strong dislike for large group excursions.  We do walk the walk with our talk.  This year we have cruise/land trips in Europe, Asia and the Middle East and do not plan on taking a single cruise line excursion.  We are using some private tours (very small group) where it make sense (such as to Petra) and for that I am grateful to the CC Roll Calls where it is possible to join with a few others on tours.  But most of the time we will go off on our own (yes, even in the Middle East) or perhaps with another couple of folks with a similar mindset.

 

Hank

[NLH Arizona]

36 minutes ago, ed01106 said:

Likewise if an Australian not realizing you tip the shuttle driver in USA doesn't tip the shuttle driver that brings him from the airport to the cruise ship stiffs the driver, that is a mistake.  On the other hand if he is on a cruise with auto-grats and goes to the burser to have them removed, that is a demand that this cruise ship adapt his home countries cultural style.  

 

The excuse of  "I didn't realize I was suppose to follow American tipping culture on a ship with autograts" is a lie.  This is not a lack of knowledge or cultural awareness.   No mistake was made.  You can't take a cruise that begins and ends in the USA and has autograts on the bill and pretend like you didn't think that you were expected to pay them.  

You could add if a person from a non-tipping country has a dinner for $83, gives the server their credit card, pays $83, signs the check which clearly has a place for a tip and leaves nothing.  They are trying to adapt America to their home country's cultural style.  I don't understand why those from non-tipping countries don't get it.  You are trying to bring your culture to American, just as those that tip in your country are trying to bring our culture to your country, both is wrong.  I'll abide by your country's culture rules, so please abide by my country's culture rules.

 

I agree that folks know that there is the tipping culture on cruises, they just don't want to pay it.

[mayleeman]

I have no great sympathy for nontippers on a cruise. However, some less experienced ones (non-participants on CC) may not actually know that crew base pay is low and that the pay structure for crew in service positions is largely based on tipping. 

Edited January 8, 2020 by mayleeman

[ed01106]

12 minutes ago, NLH Arizona said:

You could add if a person from a non-tipping country has a dinner for $83, gives the server their credit card, pays $83, signs the check which clearly has a place for a tip and leaves nothing.  They are trying to adapt America to their home country's cultural style.  I don't understand why those from non-tipping countries don't get it. 

 

You may have a point.  But I will leave it as possible that the person mistakenly thought it was an option only to be used for truly exceptional service (as is the case in some cultures) rather than expected at every meal.  

 

*MY POINT* was there doesn't exist a situation that is a more obvious example of flouting the local culture than standing in line at the bursar's desk to have the gratuities removed.  You had to do something to remove them.  Not leave a line blank or ignore a large jar that is labeled tips.  You actually went to the bursar, asked to have it removed, the bursar than responded by asking if you had any complaints about the services, and you affirmatively stated that it was not based on flaw in the services you received but an expectation that this ship conform to the cultural norms of your home country rather than the market it serves.  

 

So we aren't talking the parallel of an ugly American that wears shorts in Rome.  We are talking the parallel of an ugly American that moons the Pope in St. Peter’s Basilica.

[gerena]

I have not read all the posts to this thread but here is what we have been told on cruises from the bursars office.  If we remove the obligatory tips from the ship's bill and instead tip those employees that we wish, the staff that we tip cannot keep it, but they have to put it in the pool with the others.  If we keep the obligatory tips on our ship bill AND tip the staff we wish to tip, then the staff get to keep our individual tips.  

 

That being said, we were once on an Australian/New Zealand cruise on Princess.  No Australian had to pay the obligatory tips, but we as Americans did, unless we chose to remove it  Cultural differences, but I thought it should have been the same for all.  

 

I just wish--as in many situations--that the employer would pay the crew the appropriate amount and not cause all these tipping issues.  I'm not against tipping, but just think the employer gets out of paying by putting it on the customer.

[ed01106]

5 minutes ago, gerena said:

 

 

That being said, we were once on an Australian/New Zealand cruise on Princess.  No Australian had to pay the obligatory tips, but we as Americans did, unless we chose to remove it  Cultural differences, but I thought it should have been the same for all.  

 

 

 

Question - After taking into consideration currency exchange rates was your base fare lower or the same as the Australians on board for comparable staterooms?

 

The reason I ask is if the Australians were being charged $15 a night more in base fee than the Americans and the Americans had autograts at $15 per night, than the system was immensely fair and completely took into account differences in cultures.  OTOH if the both Americans and Australians were being charged the same fare the but only the Americans were expected to pay the grats than the system was unfair.  

[gerena]

That's a great point.  I never asked.  Even within the US, it seems like different cruisers have different charges for the base fee, based on when you booked, promotions, etc. etc.  Hard to compare. 

But they may have had a lower base fee.  

Thanks for bringing up that point--I will never know!  

[sanger727]

14 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

There was an American tourist who I got talking to who told me the reason she always tipped 20% no matter the country or culture was because she felt guilty if she didn't🙄. 

 

And this is part of the problem. Now, she is wrong for imposing her values on other cultures for sure. But even in the US, tipping has turned into a runaway train that many of us would like to get away from and can't. I know that when I waitressed I made very very little money because the pay took into account the fact that I would receive tips. I've been hearing that more and more states are removing the "tipped position minimum wage" and that all restaurant employees are paid at least minimum wage. Sorry, but if you are being paid adequately then I feel no need to tip 20% after every meal. But you never know for sure who is and who isn't here. And there is still a huge cultural push to tip these massive amounts, even to positions that are now well paid. It's ridiculous. I wish we could cut back but here it is truly a guilt trip if you don't because it's expected. And you are judged by others based on how well or poorly you tip. 

 

I try to be culturally sensitive when we travel and there are some destinations where it's easy - Caribbean - tip, mexico - tip, Australia - don't tip, Japan - don't tip. But there are many countries where it's not so clear cut which makes it hard to know what is expected.  I've recently be researching for a trip to south east asia. And the general advise on trip advisor that the countries are not tipping countries and tips will not be expected.... but on the other hand the people make very little so tips are appreciated... ***** am I supposed to do with that? It makes someone adopting a "I"m going to tip everywhere to make sure I don't leave anyone out" mentality make a little more sense. It also makes the cruise lines with the auto tipping alot more desirable. They decide what I need to tip to make sure their employees are fairly paid because they know what pay and benefits they provide. and I can go about my day without feeling bad that I'm leaving someone out.

Edited January 8, 2020 by sanger727

[ed01106]

18 minutes ago, sanger727 said:

 

.  I've recently be researching for a trip to south east asia. And the general advise on trip advisor that the countries are not tipping countries and tips will not be expected.... but on the other hand the people make very little so tips are appreciated... ***** am I supposed to do with that? It makes someone adopting a "I"m going to tip everywhere to make sure I don't leave anyone out" mentality make a little more sense.

 

While some Australians will certainly disagree.

 

I think when in doubt tip it is better to tip than not to tip. Obviously don't tip in Japan or Australia but if you are not sure if you should tip the housekeeper in Calcutta or not.....the harm of not tipping when you should (her family doesn't eat that night) is a lot worse than the harm of tipping when you shouldn't (she gets to buy her kid a pair of shoes and she treats future guests from the USA nicer than she treats guests from Australia  🙂  ).  

 

 

 

Edited January 8, 2020 by ed01106

[GUT2407]

1 hour ago, mayleeman said:

I have no great sympathy for nontippers on a cruise. However, some less experienced ones (non-participants on CC) may not actually know that crew base pay is low and that the pay structure for crew in service positions is largely based on tipping. 

I had no idea till I joined CC that crew were paid so appallingly 

[Texas Tillie]

1 hour ago, GUT2407 said:

I had no idea till I joined CC that crew were paid so appallingly 

 

Appalling - yes for a very expensive country with high taxes like Australia, but is it for the Philippines, Indonesia, etc., etc.? As has been said many times on these tipping threads, no one is holding a gun to the head of any crew member on any cruise ship making them work there.

[ed01106]

13 minutes ago, Texas Tillie said:

 

Appalling - yes for a very expensive country with high taxes like Australia, but is it for the Philippines, Indonesia, etc., etc.? As has been said many times on these tipping threads, no one is holding a gun to the head of any crew member on any cruise ship making them work there.

True.  But the lack of guns is no reason to withhold the autograts

[ilikeanswers]

5 hours ago, ed01106 said:

The excuse of  "I didn't realize I was suppose to follow American tipping culture on a ship with autograts" is a lie.  This is not a lack of knowledge or cultural awareness.   No mistake was made.  You can't take a cruise that begins and ends in the USA and has autograts on the bill and pretend like you didn't think that you were expected to pay them.  

 

I would disagree, since auto gratuity doesn't exist on land and would not turn up in most research of how to tip in America. When you check out of a hotel the receptionist doesn't hand you a bill saying here is the auto gratuity. It is a very different form of tipping then the one that is on land so they might not  recognise it as American style tipping. They might think it is a cruise line invented optional fee especially if all their previous cruises were auto gratuity free. Saying that it is removable I think makes it worst because it makes it seem like it is not important to staff pay if customers can remove it. Most cruisers would have no idea the pay structure on a cruise ship. 

[ilikeanswers]

3 hours ago, ed01106 said:

I think when in doubt tip it is better to tip than not to tip. Obviously don't tip in Japan or Australia but if you are not sure if you should tip the housekeeper in Calcutta or not.....the harm of not tipping when you should (her family doesn't eat that night) is a lot worse than the harm of tipping when you shouldn't (she gets to buy her kid a pair of shoes and she treats future guests from the USA nicer than she treats guests from Australia  🙂  ).  

 

The problem with your thinking is then locals can't get taxis or a table in a restaurant because they would rather forgo local patrons in the hope of getting a tipping tourist. Not to mention countries where there is a high rate of child labour parents will take their kids out of school to go into tipping industries for the chance of earning more money because of that attitude of you want to help the poor worker and people tip even more when it is a child. The long term harm in a community can be severe. Just do the research, and find out what the local practice is not the tourist practice. 

[RocketMan275]

My suggestion: 

The cruise line should offer two fares when booking a cruise:

- those who like to tip can book a cruise where the auto-gratuities are paid on board the ship.  The current system except the auto-gratuities cannot be removed except for documented service issues.

- those who do not want to tip are offered a increased fare exactly equal to the first fare plus the auto-gratuities.

 

That should make everyone happy.  Those who like the current system can book under that.  Those who think the cruise lines should incorporate the auto-gratuities into the fare can book under the second system.