Does the ships crew really get !00% of the gratuities?

[ldubs]

7 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

 Even the foreign crew are typically represented by a loose "union" in their home countries, and this "union" negotiates with the cruise lines for the terms of the crew contract.

 

Just curious.  I'm assuming the negotiated terms are uniform across all country and unions (if more than one).  Otherwise I can imagine a huge mess with employee morale. 

[chengkp75]

4 hours ago, ldubs said:

 

Just curious.  I'm assuming the negotiated terms are uniform across all country and unions (if more than one).  Otherwise I can imagine a huge mess with employee morale. 

Not necessarily.  Generally the same positions pay close to the same regardless of country, but not always, and deck and engine mariner unions will have a higher pay rate than hotel workers from the same country, as there is more competition for them from other shipping.

[hal2008]

 

Wow.

 

To complicate further:

 

Neither including tips in base fare nor auto-tip allow for the flexibility of tipping where you received ANY service and NONE where you never ventured.

 

Example: Family with young kids went to buffett exclusively and not even once to MDR.

Why should they tip MDR employees at all? and How to tip the WJ/Lido staff pool (that category does not exist)

Giving enevelope to each and evey WJ/Lido employee that served you will not be practical.

 

Also if they remove auto-tip, the tips from room attendants will also be removed.

So even if you are satisfied with the service and the amount,  have to end up doing cash tips instead.

 

Initially, tips were for directly serving employees only then for the team (casinos) and now also for "behind screen employees". Why not lower base fare further and auto-tip for captain and navigation officers?.

Taking ridiculousness further how about auto-tip for CEO and CFO bouns?

 

I have overheard a collegue telling a visitor from UK branch:

"15% for bad service, 18% for acceptable, 20% for good and 25% for exceptionally outstanding"

UK guy responded:

"why not include 15% in the price?"

 

 

Edited January 21, 2020 by hal2008

[mayleeman]

Why does anyone worry about it so much?

 

If you are concerned that someone really special does not get enough from the daily grat, give that person more.

 

If you are concerned that someone you think did a bad job is getting something from the daily grat, the remedy for that is still the same as years ago: report them.

 

If you are concerned someone who did not provide "direct service" is receiving something from your money, that should not be a huge concern because, really, their share is likely a small percentage. 

 

And in the latter case, if you have no desire to tip the "behind the scenes crew," just remember who ensures the food is cooked correctly, the sheets are freshly laundered, the trash is collected, the room service kitchens have appropriate supplies, the silverware and plates are clean, and all the other things are done so that your stateroom attendant and waitstaff actually can accomplish the amazing amount of work they do for you every day.

 

I guarantee that any waiter or attendant anyone thinks is deserving is only one face among many of the people actually serving you and making your cruise delightful.

Edited January 21, 2020 by mayleeman

[awhcruiser]

Best post so far!

[Nic6318]

34 minutes ago, mayleeman said:

Why does anyone worry about it so much?

 

If you are concerned that someone really special does not get enough from the daily grat, give that person more.

 

If you are concerned that someone you think did a bad job is getting something from the daily grat, the remedy for that is still the same as years ago: report them.

 

 

Hi

 

This is a perennial discussion (more like everblooming). The thread was started at the beginning of the year, it will eventually recede and within a few weeks someone will resurrect it or just start a new thread.

 

Over the years, my sense is that, nobody is really worried about how much the ships crew gets. Logical thought will not prevail. These threads are started by people who are either just having fun (maybe trying see how long the thread will continue this time), or those who are lamenting how the cruise companies are slowly finding ways to make it harder (without inconvenience or embarrassment) for people to just not tip. After all, this situation arose specifically because of those people. 

 

However the cruise lines deal with their personnel in regards to their work standards and salaries is their business, not ours. If anyone has an issue with any given company, for any given reason, they should find another company that better reflects their requirements, and stop whining here. This discussion has nothing to do with informing the cruising public. 

[2wheelin]

10 hours ago, hal2008 said:

 

Wow.

 

To complicate further:

 

Neither including tips in base fare nor auto-tip allow for the flexibility of tipping where you received ANY service and NONE where you never ventured.

 

Example: Family with young kids went to buffett exclusively and not even once to MDR.

Why should they tip MDR employees at all? and How to tip the WJ/Lido staff pool (that category does not exist)

Giving enevelope to each and evey WJ/Lido employee that served you will not be practical.

 

Also if they remove auto-tip, the tips from room attendants will also be removed.

So even if you are satisfied with the service and the amount,  have to end up doing cash tips instead.

 

Initially, tips were for directly serving employees only then for the team (casinos) and now also for "behind screen employees". Why not lower base fare further and auto-tip for captain and navigation officers?.

Taking ridiculousness further how about auto-tip for CEO and CFO bouns?

 

I have overheard a collegue telling a visitor from UK branch:

"15% for bad service, 18% for acceptable, 20% for good and 25% for exceptionally outstanding"

UK guy responded:

"why not include 15% in the price?"

 

 

You don’t really believe there is separate wait staff for MDR and Lido do you? Our steakhouse waiter was serving breakfast buffet the next morning. Leaving auto tips to be divided is the fairest for all. The point is that most people do not know who has actually served them.

I’m sure you could tip the captain if you wished.

[Schoifmom]

"Why not include 15% in the price?"

"Why not just add gratuities to the price of the cruise?"

 

FWIW, they could do that.  However, those gratuities then become income for the cruise line, which increases their tax burden.  So, for example, if they added 15% to cover gratuities, they would have to increase fare by approximately 21% (assuming a 35% effective tax rate) to cover the additional burden.  Also, in most cases, it would increase the individual tax liability for the employees, making it more difficult to hire good employees.  So, you will have increased the amount you pay for the cruise by more than the gratuities would have cost you and theoretically received poorer service.

Edited January 21, 2020 by Schoifmom

[mayleeman]

@Wouldn't the amount paid as increased salary just be deductible from gross revenue? 

 

I agree it would create a payroll tax increase for employer-funded things like pension or 401(k), OASDI, Medicare, and unemployment if the lines did that like an American-flagged ship would. But that only applies to one ship among hundreds of cruise ships, if that many. (Or am I missing something here?)

[chengkp75]

14 hours ago, Schoifmom said:

"Why not include 15% in the price?"

"Why not just add gratuities to the price of the cruise?"

 

FWIW, they could do that.  However, those gratuities then become income for the cruise line, which increases their tax burden.  So, for example, if they added 15% to cover gratuities, they would have to increase fare by approximately 21% (assuming a 35% effective tax rate) to cover the additional burden.  Also, in most cases, it would increase the individual tax liability for the employees, making it more difficult to hire good employees.  So, you will have increased the amount you pay for the cruise by more than the gratuities would have cost you and theoretically received poorer service.

Well, this assumes that the cruise line pays taxes on its revenues, which for the most part they don't.  Also, while I'm not fully conversant with all of the tax codes in all the countries that the crew come from, I can state that any "gratuity" that is paid from the employer and not directly from a customer, is considered to be normal income for a Filipino worker working outside the country, and I seem to recall seeing the same thing for Indonesia, so accounting for the bulk of cruise ship crew.

 

Despite what is told about DSC, it is done for two reasons only:  one, to be able to lower the advertised cruise fare, and two, to attempt to form a "team" service culture where the crew enforce good service (since one crew's poor performance can affect all the crew) through peer pressure (taking the onus of strict supervision off the cruise line), and being able to blame the reduction of wage on the passenger and not the cruise line. 

[rugerdog]

8 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Despite what is told about DSC, it is done for two reasons only:  one, to be able to lower the advertised cruise fare, and two, to attempt to form a "team" service culture where the crew enforce good service (since one crew's poor performance can affect all the crew) through peer pressure (taking the onus of strict supervision off the cruise line), and being able to blame the reduction of wage on the passenger and not the cruise line. 

 

Interesting.  Thank you.

[ed01106]

8 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Well, this assumes that the cruise line pays taxes on its revenues, which for the most part they don't.  Also, while I'm not fully conversant with all of the tax codes in all the countries that the crew come from, I can state that any "gratuity" that is paid from the employer and not directly from a customer, is considered to be normal income for a Filipino worker working outside the country, and I seem to recall seeing the same thing for Indonesia, so accounting for the bulk of cruise ship crew.

 

Despite what is told about DSC, it is done for two reasons only:  one, to be able to lower the advertised cruise fare, and two, to attempt to form a "team" service culture where the crew enforce good service (since one crew's poor performance can affect all the crew) through peer pressure (taking the onus of strict supervision off the cruise line), and being able to blame the reduction of wage on the passenger and not the cruise line. 

There are other advantages to the cruise line as well....

 

It also shifts some of the financial risks to the employees.  For example if a cruise sails 1/3 empty the employees get 1/3 less pay.  This is unlike most businesses, flight attendant gets the same pay if the airplane is full or mostly empty.  

 

Switching would lower the profit margin for the company even added revenue and added expenses was equal.  Have $100 million revenue and $90 million in expenses is a 10% profit margin.  Having $110 million in sales $100 million in expenses is now only a 9% profit margin.  This would make the stock look less attractive.  

 

Makes it easier (and doesn't cost the company any money)  to "refund" a portion of the fare for poor service.  If a customer is unhappy that the food at the buffet was cold, the customer can give themselves a refund by reducing the tip which comes out of the employees pockets not the companies.  Otherwise, such refunds would affect the corporate profits.  

 

It makes employees prefer under staffing to over staffing.  Waitstaff, bar staff etc tend to hate it when overstaffed.  If there is twice as much staff as needed then you make less in tips (this is true both in pooled and non-pooled environments)  Purely hourly employees tend to prefer more staff to less because that means less work.  Waitresses will complain if there are too many waitresses working, the opposite is the case for a stock clerk or cashier.  This creates an incentive to be more productive.

 

The ONE advantage for customer and a disadvantage for the cruise line (not really.  it effects the employees not the cruise line).  Is that "portion of the fare" is full refundable in case of cancellation.  E.g. if you missed your flight and therefore didn't take the cruise you won't get a refund for the fare, but you will get any pre-paid tips back.  If cruise lines included their labor costs in the fare price you would not get that back.           

[SRF]

On 1/22/2020 at 3:04 PM, ed01106 said:

There are other advantages to the cruise line as well....

 

It also shifts some of the financial risks to the employees.  For example if a cruise sails 1/3 empty the employees get 1/3 less pay.  This is unlike most businesses, flight attendant gets the same pay if the airplane is full or mostly empty.  

 

Not exactly.

 

1)  Not all their pay is from the service fee.  It is a suppliment to their base pay.  They will make less, not not 1/3 less.

 

2)  There is a minimum monthly salary based on work at sea regulations.  If the base pay plus service charge pay is less than that amount, the cruise line has to make up the difference to meet the minimum pay.

 

Reference a number of posts on the subject by CHENG75, who currently works as a ship engineer.

[rugerdog]

11 hours ago, SRF said:

2)  There is a minimum monthly salary based on work at sea regulations.  If the base pay plus service charge pay is less than that amount, the cruise line has to make up the difference to meet the minimum pay.

 

This is interesting.  Help me make sure I understand this correctly. 

 

Example:    The minimum monthly salary guaranteed to the employee is $1,000, with $800 coming from the cruise line, and $200 coming from the passenger.  If the passenger withholds the service charge/gratuity, then the employee still gets the entire $1,000, but it is completely paid by the cruise line, instead of subsidized by the passenger. 

 

Is that correct?

[chengkp75]

4 hours ago, rugerdog said:

 

This is interesting.  Help me make sure I understand this correctly. 

 

Example:    The minimum monthly salary guaranteed to the employee is $1,000, with $800 coming from the cruise line, and $200 coming from the passenger.  If the passenger withholds the service charge/gratuity, then the employee still gets the entire $1,000, but it is completely paid by the cruise line, instead of subsidized by the passenger. 

 

Is that correct?

Here's something closer to the actual situation.  The minimum wage is $750/month, the actual wage is $1500/month.  The cruise line pays about $200/month in salary and the balance of $1300/month comes from DSC.  So, if passengers withhold a total of $200, that crew member makes $1300 ($200/month less).  If passengers withhold $800, that crew member makes $750/month ($200 in salary, $50 in "make-up" from the line, and $500 from DSC).

[ed01106]

3 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Here's something closer to the actual situation.  The minimum wage is $750/month, the actual wage is $1500/month.  The cruise line pays about $200/month in salary and the balance of $1300/month comes from DSC.  So, if passengers withhold a total of $200, that crew member makes $1300 ($200/month less).  If passengers withhold $800, that crew member makes $750/month ($200 in salary, $50 in "make-up" from the line, and $500 from DSC).

So my point about the cruise-line shifting much of the financial risk of underperforming sales to the employees mostly correct.  

[ontheweb]

3 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Here's something closer to the actual situation.  The minimum wage is $750/month, the actual wage is $1500/month.  The cruise line pays about $200/month in salary and the balance of $1300/month comes from DSC.  So, if passengers withhold a total of $200, that crew member makes $1300 ($200/month less).  If passengers withhold $800, that crew member makes $750/month ($200 in salary, $50 in "make-up" from the line, and $500 from DSC).

 

So would it be fair to say that the right thing to do is to leave the tip in place and if you wish add extra in cash?

[SRF]

1 hour ago, ontheweb said:

 

So would it be fair to say that the right thing to do is to leave the tip in place and if you wish add extra in cash?

 

Yes

[chengkp75]

3 hours ago, ontheweb said:

 

So would it be fair to say that the right thing to do is to leave the tip in place and if you wish add extra in cash?

Yes

[Cruzaholic41]

Some of you put way too much thought into other people’s pay. 

[chengkp75]

8 hours ago, ed01106 said:

So my point about the cruise-line shifting much of the financial risk of underperforming sales to the employees mostly correct.  

However, very few cruises sail significantly under capacity.

[tip]

2 hours ago, Cruzaholic41 said:

Some of you put way too much thought into other people’s pay. 

Some of us have a social conscience.

[Cruzaholic41]

3 hours ago, tip said:

Some of us have a social conscience.

No. More like nosy. 

[rugerdog]

3 hours ago, Cruzaholic41 said:

No. More like nosy. 

 

When a customer is being told that they have control over how much an employee gets paid, then I don't find it unusual to be interested.  

[Texas Tillie]

15 hours ago, tip said:

Some of us have a social conscience.

 

When I read something like this I think, it's "funny" that a job on a cruise line is a very desirable job for people from many parts of the world. No one is forcing anyone to take these jobs. If the way these people are compensated is acceptable to them, why should I have a problem with it?