Does the ships crew really get !00% of the gratuities?

[SRF]

On 1/3/2020 at 5:49 PM, GUT2407 said:

What I find amazing is so many seem to be unable unwilling to do the maths,

 

one line may be cruise+ taxes + gratuities

 

another one flat price including all the above

 

not to mention various perks, excursions, drinks, specialty restaurants, OBC, etc

 

Surely you do the calculations and work out what is best for you, if you are really fooled into thinking you are getting a bargain because it is a low fare with add ons, the old saying about a fool and his money holds true.

 

That part may or may not be something that a person uses/participate.   So each person's calculations would be different with regards to those.

[RocketMan275]

15 hours ago, gerryuk said:

Who is stiffing who, though?  Its not me or other customers who are stiffing the crew, its their CEOs and the organisations they work for. Again, tips should be a bonus for staff, not part of their salary. Trying to guilt trip customers is just playing into the hands of these CEOs, who are running multi billion dollar businesses. 

It doesn't matter if you call it a gratuity, service charge, or a fare,  all the revenue of a cruise line comes from the passengers.  You, the passenger, are still paying the compensation for the crew.

Your logic only holds if you expect the cruise line to increase compensation without increasing fares.

[MicCanberra]

7 hours ago, ontheweb said:

Good point, but I did once write a letter to the editor of our area's newspaper calling them out for using a call service from the Philippines when they wrote editorials advocating buying local. Of course they did not print the letter. Instead they e-mailed back that "it was not their fault" since it was a decision by their parent company.

Yes, commercial hypocrisy at it's plainest.

[Hlitner]

22 hours ago, gerryuk said:

I think MSC have got it about right. Gratuities / Service charge is part of the cruise fare. MSC advise customers not to tip individual members of staff.

That is not true for MSC cruises out of Florida.  The tipping process is similar to other cruise lines with a daily gratuity charge (I think it is $12.50 per person/day) added to the passenger's account.  In fact, last year MSC was going to make the auto tips "mandatory" but backed off that policy.  We were just on the Divina in the Yacht Club and did have the usual gratuities added to our account (we had more then enough OBC to cover it).

 

I think, in another post you referenced something about the crew being slave labor.  This idea seems to be coming out of a few folks in the UK (where the concept of tipping is still not popular) but we think you are completely wrong.  We do have some good friends who work on various ships and they would be the first to tell you that they are not "slaves" nor do they work for slave wages.  Their income is quite good, especially when one understands that their expenses when working onboard are minimal.   Our friends have all been working for many years and have told us they love the job.  They could get jobs in their home countries (or elsewhere) but they prefer ships.  Our most recent Princess cabin stewardess was just finishing her 8th contract (about 6 years) and said she planned on continuing the job unless she decided to have children.

 

But here is the myth about your "slave labor" issue.  The crew goes through a lot of hassles to simply get hired by cruise lines (or their contractors).  They do this because they want the job, not because somebody forces them to take the job.  Nobody is forced to work on a ship and the crew are simply exercising their free will.  We have talked to two crew friends and mentioned this "slave labor" argument coming out of the UK and Europe and they did not have anything nice to say about "people trying to interfere with our life."  I understand that some folks seem to think that only they are capable of making life decisions for others, but perhaps it would be a better world if "laissez-faire" were the policy.  The funny thing is that lassiez-faire is a European term that has been abandoned by many Europeans :(.

 

Hank

[davecttr]

22 hours ago, gerryuk said:

I think MSC have got it about right. Gratuities / Service charge is part of the cruise fare. MSC advise customers not to tip individual members of staff.

Marella in the UK have had this policy for years, 'remember, all tips are included' is printed on your cruise card. P&O UK have recently adopted a similar policy and they say 'tipping isn't required or expected'. In both cases you can tip a crew member for exceptional service and they can keep the tip for themselves.

[RocketMan275]

51 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

I understand that some folks seem to think that only they are capable of making life decisions for others, but perhaps it would be a better world if "laissez-faire" were the policy.  The funny thing is that lassiez-faire is a European term that has been abandoned by many Europeans :(.

 

Hank

The world would be a much better place if people didn't try to impose their version of 'what's best' on everyone else.

[MicCanberra]

1 hour ago, davecttr said:

Marella in the UK have had this policy for years, 'remember, all tips are included' is printed on your cruise card. P&O UK have recently adopted a similar policy and they say 'tipping isn't required or expected'. In both cases you can tip a crew member for exceptional service and they can keep the tip for themselves.

As with P&O Australia.

[pris993]

On 1/2/2020 at 9:16 PM, Longwood50 said:

I saw today that both Carnival and Celebrity were raising their gratuities in 2020.  Celebrity will now have a 20% gratuity which when they raise the prices of their drinks will hit you twice.  That means a $15 drink will nick you $3.00 extra.  I find it difficult to believe with all the drinks a bartender serves that the cruise line passes on the full 20%.  Does anyone know if the cruise lines do indeed pass along 100% of the "gratuities" they collect or do they skim the pot?

Who cares... what ever happens is between the cruise line and the crew... when the crew signs up they know how it works.

All you need to decide is whether you want a drink or not... 

[ontheweb]

5 hours ago, MicCanberra said:

Yes, commercial hypocrisy at it's plainest.

I thought so both when I wrote my e-mail letter to the editor, and even more so when I received their reply.

[awhcruiser]

4 hours ago, RocketMan275 said:

The world would be a much better place if people didn't try to impose their version of 'what's best' on everyone else.

This..........gets old really quick.

[awhcruiser]

2 hours ago, pris993 said:

Who cares... what ever happens is between the cruise line and the crew... when the crew signs up they know how it works.

All you need to decide is whether you want a drink or not... 

Exactly.  If its such a problem, just stay home!

[ilikeanswers]

3 hours ago, Hlitner said:

But here is the myth about your "slave labor" issue.  The crew goes through a lot of hassles to simply get hired by cruise lines (or their contractors).  They do this because they want the job, not because somebody forces them to take the job.  Nobody is forced to work on a ship and the crew are simply exercising their free will.  We have talked to two crew friends and mentioned this "slave labor" argument coming out of the UK and Europe and they did not have anything nice to say about "people trying to interfere with our life."  I understand that some folks seem to think that only they are capable of making life decisions for others, but perhaps it would be a better world if "laissez-faire" were the policy.  The funny thing is that lassiez-faire is a European term that has been abandoned by many Europeans :(.

 

Hank

 

Slave labour is an overstatement but what you call choice isn't quite the same as the way the developed world thinks of choice. It is more of a best of not great options rather than a living your best life kind of choice. They are great full of the opportunity to provide well for their family but if they had a real choice they would rather have such job opportunities in their own country without having to leave their families. 

 

Working in an industry that utilises a lot of foreign workers I have seen the good and the bad. The laissez-faire attitude is what allows businesses to think they can get away with mistreating. If no one cares no will complain and foreign workers are usually the last to complain about anything since they don't want to cause trouble. Because cruise lines are so heavily scrutinised they tend to be pretty good with the treatment of foreign workers (there are definitely areas that still need work) but if scrutiny falls away then in my experience that is when conditions start dropping. It is not about telling people how to live their life but it is about keeping corporations on their toes. 

[pris993]

32 minutes ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

Slave labour is an overstatement but what you call choice isn't quite the same as the way the developed world thinks of choice. It is more of a best of not great options rather than a living your best life kind of choice. They are great full of the opportunity to provide well for their family but if they had a real choice they would rather have such job opportunities in their own country without having to leave their families. 

 

Working in an industry that utilises a lot of foreign workers I have seen the good and the bad. The laissez-faire attitude is what allows businesses to think they can get away with mistreating. If no one cares no will complain and foreign workers are usually the last to complain about anything since they don't want to cause trouble. Because cruise lines are so heavily scrutinised they tend to be pretty good with the treatment of foreign workers (there are definitely areas that still need work) but if scrutiny falls away then in my experience that is when conditions start dropping. It is not about telling people how to live their life but it is about keeping corporations on their toes. 

I have already stated I think this is non of our business.  I take one step further, if they can't find work in their home country that is not our business either.   

 

[ilikeanswers]

39 minutes ago, pris993 said:

I have already stated I think this is non of our business.  I take one step further, if they can't find work in their home country that is not our business either.   

 

You don't have to care no one can make you care, it is your prerogative. I was pointing out that scrutiny is what keeps corporations from behaving badly. If they know people will make a fuss and change their consumer behaviour because of bad behaviour they are less likely to engage in dodgy practices. The reality is none of us live in a vacuum everything we do effects other people whether we want it to or not and in return other people's decisions will effect us. If you do have control over something like where you spend your money is it really that bad to make an informed decision about it? 

[ilikeanswers]

To be clear I wasn't talking about government regulation, that is whole other topic. I was talking about consumer behaviour effecting corporate behaviour. 

[sanger727]

On 1/4/2020 at 6:14 PM, gerryuk said:

 

Again, cruise lines are raking in vast profits with turnover in the billions, if nothing else, is it not morally right in this day and age to pay all their staff a decent wage? Tips should be a bonus on top of their wage, not part of it.

 

That would be nice. But that's not the world we live in. Plenty of people in the US work for much less than minimum wage due in tipped positions here. It's not a new concept to pay people in tipped positions much less than in non-tipped positions and allow the tips to make up the wage. 

[Hlitner]

I just got around to catching up with this interesting thread.  A few raised a good point regarding why we should care how DSC/Auto tips get distributed on cruise ships.   Well, here is the answer from my perspective.  We have been crusiing (extensively) since the mid 70s.  For the first 15-20 years of our cruise life, the norm on many cruise lines was for passengers to directly tip (in cash) only those crew members who provided driect service.  In fact, many cruise lines would provide envelopes (put in passenger cabins) that were actually labeled with the various crew functions (i.e. waiter, assistant waiter, cabin steward, maitre'd, etc).  The tradition was for passengers to distribute those envelopes on the last night of the cruise.  Most passengers did go along with the program, but there always a few who would disappear from the MDR on that last night or forget that they had a cabin steward.  And then there were some passengers from anti-tipping cultures who found the entire process annoying and probably gave their entire tip to themselves :).

 

So, coming from a background of deciding how much to tip various crew members it is just a natural progression to want to know how the cruise line distributes MY money.   When some of the cruise lines began the entire auto tip process it was  relatively common for them to disclose the breakdown of how the auto tips were distributed.  This was a good thing because some folks may have decided that certain crew members (such as their cabin steward) deserved more....and some passengers were very generous (including moi).  But now, it has all become a mystery. When I talk to friends who are also frequent cruisers there seems to be  a growing trend to no longer enhance the autotips with additional tips given to certain folks.  Some passengers are simply fed-up with the system and they take it out on the crew.

 

Hank

[NLH Arizona]

32 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

 For the first 15-20 years of our cruise life, the norm on many cruise lines was for passengers to directly tip (in cash) only those crew members who provided driect service.  In fact, many cruise lines would provide envelopes (put in passenger cabins) that were actually labeled with the various crew functions (i.e. waiter, assistant waiter, cabin steward, maitre'd, etc).  The tradition was for passengers to distribute those envelopes on the last night of the cruise.  Most passengers did go along with the program, but there always a few who would disappear from the MDR on that last night or forget that they had a cabin steward.  And then there were some passengers from anti-tipping cultures who found the entire process annoying and probably gave their entire tip to themselves :).

 

I've got over sixty cruises under my belt and started when they had the envelope system.  Based on fares today, cruise fares were substantially more back then.  Cruise Lines have become more affordable for many more people than it was back in the day.  I've got no issue if all cruise lines added the DSC/automatic gratuities into the fare and raise the fares to offset.  But as we saw when NCL did this in some countries, they got a total blow back from passengers.  Why, because they want the cheapest fare and, to be perfectly honest, they don't want to pay the DSC, because it raises the cost of their cruise.

 

I'm not sure what cruise lines you cruised on back in the day, but the ones I have cruised on (with the exception of Crystal) all had more than just a few who did not show up for dinner the last night and I think that was very unfair to the crew member who worked very hard in the MDR and got stiffed by these folks.

 

As far as who gets the DSC.  What I'm only concerned about is that the crew gets the salary they contracted for and hopefully more if everyone were to pay the DSC.   

[Hlitner]

6 minutes ago, NLH Arizona said:

I've got over sixty cruises under my belt and started when they had the envelope system.  Based on fares today, cruise fares were substantially more back then.  Cruise Lines have become more affordable for many more people than it was back in the day.  I've got no issue if all cruise lines added the DSC/automatic gratuities into the fare and raise the fares to offset.  But as we saw when NCL did this in some countries, they got a total blow back from passengers.  Why, because they want the cheapest fare and, to be perfectly honest, they don't want to pay the DSC, because it raises the cost of their cruise.

 

I'm not sure what cruise lines you cruised on back in the day, but the ones I have cruised on (with the exception of Crystal) all had more than just a few who did not show up for dinner the last night and I think that was very unfair to the crew member who worked very hard in the MDR and got stiffed by these folks.

 

As far as who gets the DSC.  What I'm only concerned about is that the crew gets the salary they contracted for and hopefully more if everyone were to pay the DSC.   

We, in North America, are used to our tipping culture and DSC (auto gratuities) are not a big deal.  But many cruise passengers come from other parts of the world where they do not have a tipping culture and in some countries there are folks who are almost militantly opposed to tipping.  We have met Brits and Aussies who have a big issue with DSC, tips, etc.  Their point of view is that folks should be paid a "living wage" and it is not the responsibility.  Some of these folks tell us that they simply go along with program, but others refuse to have anything to do with DSC, tips, etc.  You will sometimes see these folks at Guest Relations (or at the Concierge Desk in MSC's Yacht Club) asking to have all their auto tips removed!

 

I agree with you that it is very unfair to the crew when some folks exercise the option to remove their DSCs or refuse to tip.  But I do think that this "unfairness" lies with the cruise lines who have created this crazy tipping policy with the knowledge that many of their customers are not going to go along with their system unless it is mandatory.  The obvious solution is to simply eliminate the DSC, auto grats, auto tips, service charges, etc. and include it in the cruise price.  We see this on the higher-end lines and it is a much fairer system to the crew and the passengers.  On Seabourn we actually had one crew member refuse a tip and suggest that we contribute the money to their crew fund :).   This is not uncommon on several of the higher end lines.  

 

We talked on another blog how some cruise lines quickly realized that their DSC policy was not very effective in some parts of the world.  When Princess originally based the Sea Princess in Sydney, Australia...they revamped their fare system to include DSC within the cruise fare.  This was an acknowledgment that the Aussies were not going to accept this type of crazy system.   Too bad they, and other cruise lines, don't simply go to this Australian system.   And we would not need to have any more threads on this topic :).

 

Hank

[NLH Arizona]

1 minute ago, Hlitner said:

We, in North America, are used to our tipping culture and DSC (auto gratuities) are not a big deal.  But many cruise passengers come from other parts of the world where they do not have a tipping culture and in some countries there are folks who are almost militantly opposed to tipping.  

 

We talked on another blog how some cruise lines quickly realized that their DSC policy was not very effective in some parts of the world.  When Princess originally based the Sea Princess in Sydney, Australia...they revamped their fare system to include DSC within the cruise fare.  This was an acknowledgment that the Aussies were not going to accept this type of crazy system.   Too bad they, and other cruise lines, don't simply go to this Australian system.   And we would not need to have any more threads on this topic :).

 

 

Being from a non-tipping country is no excuse not to participate in a country/cruise line's culture.  All one has to do is a little research.  I think they know about the tipping, but just don't want to do it because they want the cheapest overall price for their meals/cruises.  I didn't like that in London I was charged 1.25 percent service charge at a restaurant especially when the service sucked, but because I had done my research and knew it was their custom in some of their restaurants, I paid it.  I guess I could have been like those that refuse to tip because they don't in their country and demand that it be taken off my bill because we don't have service charges in restaurants here.

 

NCL did include the DSC in the fare in some countries and they had to reverse it, because they lost customers because they didn't want to pay the higher cruise fare.  Takeaway, they wanted the cheapest cruise fare and never ever want to pay the DSC whether it is included in the fare or an add on.  I thought that it was very sad that a poster's child said crew hated sailing out of Southampton because so many removed the DSC and they only got paid their minimum contracted salary.

[Hlitner]

4 minutes ago, NLH Arizona said:

Being from a non-tipping country is no excuse not to participate in a country/cruise line's culture.  All one has to do is a little research.  I think they know about the tipping, but just don't want to do it because they want the cheapest overall price for their meals/cruises.  I didn't like that in London I was charged 1.25 percent service charge at a restaurant especially when the service sucked, but because I had done my research and knew it was their custom in some of their restaurants, I paid it.  I guess I could have been like those that refuse to tip because they don't in their country and demand that it be taken off my bill because we don't have service charges in restaurants here.

 

NCL did include the DSC in the fare in some countries and they had to reverse it, because they lost customers because they didn't want to pay the higher cruise fare.  Takeaway, they wanted the cheapest cruise fare and never ever want to pay the DSC whether it is included in the fare or an add on.  I thought that it was very sad that a poster's child said crew hated sailing out of Southampton because so many removed the DSC and they only got paid their minimum contracted salary.

yeah I guess we can call some of them "cheap."  But in many cases it is more about principle then just being cheap.   This is particularly true for those from down under (it would be nice if an Aussie would post on this thread) where some folks simply refuse to accept the concept of tipping.  Other Aussie friends are pretty generous and understand that part of travel should be to accept the local mores/culture.  

 

But as one who travels in many different countries every year I will admit that it is very confusing.  Even where tipping is common (such as where we live in Mexico during the winter) the accepted percentage varies.

 

Hank

[sanger727]

25 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

 

We talked on another blog how some cruise lines quickly realized that their DSC policy was not very effective in some parts of the world.  When Princess originally based the Sea Princess in Sydney, Australia...they revamped their fare system to include DSC within the cruise fare.  This was an acknowledgment that the Aussies were not going to accept this type of crazy system.   Too bad they, and other cruise lines, don't simply go to this Australian system.   And we would not need to have any more threads on this topic :).

 

Hank

 

Just out of curiosity. Did any of the Aussies realize that their fares just happening to be $15 pp pd higher when they revamped the fares than before? I don't think that the cruise line rolling that into the cost is going to net any customer a lower price. It will just appear to be a higher pp pd charge and be one more calculation that I would have to make to determine which itinerary on which line is the best value this year.

[Hlitner]

Just now, sanger727 said:

 

Just out of curiosity. Did any of the Aussies realize that their fares just happening to be $15 pp pd higher when they revamped the fares than before? I don't think that the cruise line rolling that into the cost is going to net any customer a lower price. It will just appear to be a higher pp pd charge and be one more calculation that I would have to make to determine which itinerary on which line is the best value this year.

The Aussies we know would not have an issue with the higher price.   They are just opposed to the tipping culture on principle.  Personally I am on their side as it just makes life easy to pay the tab without having to determine how much to add (which varies from country to country).   We will be in over a dozen different countries this year and each has their own rules!  It can be maddening.

 

Hank

[cruisemom42]

50 minutes ago, NLH Arizona said:

Being from a non-tipping country is no excuse not to participate in a country/cruise line's culture.  All one has to do is a little research. 

 

I agree with this, but I am often surprised at how one-sided the argument seems to be. We Americans want everyone else to understand and abide by our tipping culture, yet when I try to tell Americans going to Italy, for example, that tipping such as is done in the US is neither expected nor part of the culture in that part of Europe, I often get disparaging comments such as "Well, no one turned down my tip!"

 

That is not the point at all. Of course someone is not going to turn down your tip. (Except possibly in Japan.) But it's not a tipping CULTURE and we shouldn't import our cultural practices to such an extent that we change local practice for the people who actually live and work there. Servers, drivers, tour guides et al are paid a living wage and are not expected to make up the remainder in tips. If someone really goes all out and you want to express appreciation, a small tip is fine. But 10% and upward? No.

 

For Americans, tipping feels good and comfortable. Many cannot leave their tipping habits behind. But "when in Rome" applies equally to all sides. 

 

 

[ed01106]

On 1/3/2020 at 7:34 AM, SRF said:

 

But they also work 10 hours per day.  7 days a week.  For 6 - 9 months.

 

And their "pay" is quite low. 

 

Still want the job?  Then apply and get one.  Then come back and tell us how it worked out.

 

Remember, you seldom see people from first world countries working these jobs.  The pay is good based on 3rd world pay rates, but not first world pay rates.

That is the reason for the suspicion. 

 

Based on how much the cruise lines charge in gratuities for drinks--  bar tenders should be making a hundred dollars an hour or more *IF* they were getting 100% of the gratuities.  The fact that they make such low pay is what raises the suspicion that the cruise line is taking a cut or using the money for other purposes.