Does the ships crew really get !00% of the gratuities?

[sanger727]

1 hour ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

I would like to think that money I hand over is going to have a positive impact. I wouldn't want my money going to support something that is illegal or immoral. It is like people who choose free range eggs because they worry how chickens are treated. If I found out a cruise line was doing something dodgy then I probably would avoid them because I would not want my money being used to continue a practice I did not agree with. 

this analogy sounds a bit like you are comparing the crew to farm animals so having a little trouble following the logic. I think no matter what your cruise fare is doing something positive because it’s giving people more opportunities than they had back home. 

[MicCanberra]

19 minutes ago, sanger727 said:

 I think no matter what your cruise fare is doing something positive because it’s giving people more opportunities than they had back home. 

And are also having a positive contribution to all the share holders of the cruise lines company.

[ilikeanswers]

4 minutes ago, sanger727 said:

this analogy sounds a bit like you are comparing the crew to farm animals so having a little trouble following the logic. I think no matter what your cruise fare is doing something positive because it’s giving people more opportunities than they had back home. 

 

I hope this is clearer than my first post. I didn't think what I wrote was so vague 😂. I'm saying people choose free range eggs because they feel they are supporting a system that treats chickens better and they don't want their money propping up a system they don't agree with, the caged eggs. You can apply the same logic with choosing a cruise line. If you find out a cruise line is treating their crew badly or has procedures you don't agree with you can choose not to sail with that company. You asked if people would avoid a cruise line who is doing something they don't agree with and I'm pointing out that the public is becoming more concerned about where their money is going and what they are supporting and if they have a choice they will make choices based on their beliefs.

 

[bonsai3s]

Gratuities...ask the cruise line.  Would love to know what they'll say.

No one here really knows where it goes.

[Hlitner]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

shHank, I dislike the DSC as much as most passengers and crew.  But, if you accept that the DSC is not a "gratuity", then why do you need information as to how they are allocated?  Do you ask how the basic cruise fare is allocated?  How much is for crew salary, how much is for food and beverage, how much is for fuel, how much is for maintenance?

You are probably the last person here on CC I want to debate :).  Your contribution to these boards is fantastic and nobody has more respect for your posts then I  (is that good grammar?).  But on this issue I will fight you to the yardarms :).  Call it what you please, but it has been marketed to passengers as "pre paid gratuities,"  "auto tips," etc.  It is marketed as the alternative to the old envelope system.  It is not up to the passengers to pay or compensate the crew anymore then it is up to airline passengers to pay the flight attendants, caterers, etc.  

 

The cruise lines created this problem and it might have worked except that we now see cruise passengers from all over the world.  Some of these folks do not believe in the "tipping" or "service charge" culture that we follow in North America.  When Princess started basing a ship down under they quickly realized that their system would not work and they made "adjustments" for the vessel (and later...vessels) based in that part of the world.  While you can make a pretty good case for separating port charges/related fees from the cruise price, there is no justification to separate what you call a DSC from the cruise price.  Nearly all the luxury lines understand this and do not play this "auto tip" or "DSC" game.  What makes the current policy so silly is that some lines still insist that the auto tips (or DSC) is voluntary and passengers can have it removed from their account.  Perhaps what we need is a cruise where all passengers insist the charge be removed!    Charge us more money for the cruise fare and pay the crew appropriately!  That is between the employer and employee.  Do not try to hang the guilt on us (some call this "tip guilt" that it is our obligation to pay the crew.   I do not pay (or tip) our mailman, why should I tip are cabin steward.  Just saying.

 

And by the way, with this silly auto tip or DSC system how do we know the money (which we pay) is going to the crew!  Perhaps it is all going to the engineering department.  Or maybe is is used to pay the big bonus collected by the CEO.  Try asking Guest Relations for a break-down of where the "tips" go.  Does the 15-18% add-on to every drink (including a bottle of water sold out of a carton near the ship's egress) go to the crew?  Or does it go to the CEO (or possibly the Chief Engineer?)

 

Hank

P.S.  In interests of full disclosure, DW and I are very generous with most crew members who provide us with direct service.

 

"

[ontheweb]

4 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

You are probably the last person here on CC I want to debate :).  Your contribution to these boards is fantastic and nobody has more respect for your posts then I  (is that good grammar?).

 

"

Yes, your grammar is correct. Think of it this way---your are basically writing "than I DO". Than "ME DO" would be incorrect.

[Hlitner]

3 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

Yes, your grammar is correct. Think of it this way---your are basically writing "than I DO". Than "ME DO" would be incorrect.

OMG!  Did something right ).  Please understand I am married to a retired teacher who is quick to correct my errors.  Old habits die hard :).

 

Hank

[ontheweb]

14 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

OMG!  Did something right ).  Please understand I am married to a retired teacher who is quick to correct my errors.  Old habits die hard :).

 

Hank

I am glad I made you feel good. You are one of the many posters who I feel I learn the most from.  LOL, now how is my grammar ending a sentence with a preposition?

[Flatbush Flyer]

43 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

Yes, your grammar is correct. Think of it this way---your are basically writing "than I DO". Than "ME DO" would be incorrect.

Perhaps you meant "...than do I."

[MicCanberra]

1 hour ago, bonsai3s said:

Gratuities...ask the cruise line.  Would love to know what they'll say.

No one here really knows where it goes.

I really don't know why people care where it goes.

If they do know, will it stop them paying the gratuities, they can already have this option.

[chengkp75]

8 hours ago, Hlitner said:

You are probably the last person here on CC I want to debate :).  Your contribution to these boards is fantastic and nobody has more respect for your posts then I  (is that good grammar?).  But on this issue I will fight you to the yardarms :).  Call it what you please, but it has been marketed to passengers as "pre paid gratuities,"  "auto tips," etc.  It is marketed as the alternative to the old envelope system.  It is not up to the passengers to pay or compensate the crew anymore then it is up to airline passengers to pay the flight attendants, caterers, etc.

As I've said, I don't believe in the DSC system any more than most cruisers.  I feel it is artificial and a not very effective "team building" incentive, as well as being basically unfair to the crew.  And you are correct that the lines market this as a gratuity, when in fact it isn't.  But, when I add a tip to a charge card receipt at a restaurant, I don't make it my mission to see if the owner actually distributes the tips to the wait staff at all, or whether they pool the tips from the cards and split them evenly among the servers.  And, when a restaurant adds a fixed "gratuity" to a large party, I don't make it my business to determine if all of that goes to the servers, or how it is divided up among the staff for the night. 

[ontheweb]

9 hours ago, Flatbush Flyer said:

Perhaps you meant "...than do I."

OTOH, there is a Beatles' song Love Me Do.

[DirtyDawg]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

As I've said, I don't believe in the DSC system any more than most cruisers.  I feel it is artificial and a not very effective "team building" incentive, as well as being basically unfair to the crew.  And you are correct that the lines market this as a gratuity, when in fact it isn't.  But, when I add a tip to a charge card receipt at a restaurant, I don't make it my mission to see if the owner actually distributes the tips to the wait staff at all, or whether they pool the tips from the cards and split them evenly among the servers.  And, when a restaurant adds a fixed "gratuity" to a large party, I don't make it my business to determine if all of that goes to the servers, or how it is divided up among the staff for the night. 

 

You might no want to know but lots of the folks on Applebee's Critic and Chipotle's Critic sure want to know! 😉

 

I'm like you, I don't care how the cruise line or the restaurant chain divvies up the tips/DSC/gratuities. I also don't ask my dentist how much she pays her hygienists and support staff.  But some people do and they will ask about these things. Oh well, I guess enquiring minds still want to know.

 

[sanger727]

11 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

I hope this is clearer than my first post. I didn't think what I wrote was so vague 😂. I'm saying people choose free range eggs because they feel they are supporting a system that treats chickens better and they don't want their money propping up a system they don't agree with, the caged eggs. You can apply the same logic with choosing a cruise line. If you find out a cruise line is treating their crew badly or has procedures you don't agree with you can choose not to sail with that company. You asked if people would avoid a cruise line who is doing something they don't agree with and I'm pointing out that the public is becoming more concerned about where their money is going and what they are supporting and if they have a choice they will make choices based on their beliefs.

 

I guess I’m just confused as to why this concern seems so focused on cruise ships. When you are at Kroger do you ask the bagger how much they are paid and if they are treated well? Would you stop using a business if you found out that they station their call centers in India and pay much less than What we consider to be minimum wage? I’m guessing that many of the products you buy come from China where the workers are paid much less than we get here and working conditions are much worse than we have. What is it about the cruise line charging auto gratuities and using that to pay their employees (as opposed to paying their employees very little and letting the employees rely on the good will of their customers to make a living) that causes people to feel like they are entitled to know how much the employees get paid and how the cruise like distributes money.

Edited January 4, 2020 by sanger727

[ilikeanswers]

5 minutes ago, sanger727 said:

I guess I’m just confused as to why this concern seems so focused on cruise ships. 

 

This is a Cruise Forum😆. That is probably why the focus is on cruise ships. Me personally yes I do think about all the things you mentioned (except the bagger, I don't think that job exists in Australia) and if there are choices I will consider all the options and make the choice I think is best with all the facts I have. 

Edited January 4, 2020 by ilikeanswers

[RocketMan275]

2 minutes ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

This is a Cruise Forum😆. That is probably why the focus is on cruise ships. 

The cruise industry serves a large spectrum of passengers from many countries with many different customs.  Your local Kroger doesn't.

[sanger727]

3 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

The cruise industry serves a large spectrum of passengers from many countries with many different customs.  Your local Kroger doesn't.

What does that have to do with anything? Everyone uses a wide variety of services provided by different companies in their everyday lives. Yes, this is a cruise forum so the focus of threads tends to be cruises. But the point I was making is that I personally don’t walk around asking every business I use how much they pay their employees and how they distribute the money I pay for their services. Why would cruises be different? 
 

I think, in general, on a lot of these threads that people talk about cruise ship employees like they are children. They bring them gifts of candy and baseball caps. They worry about (and ask them straight out) how much money they make or what living conditions are like on the ship. They ask personal details about their life that aren’t appropriate for people who are fundamentally strangers. I think it’s demeaning. They are adults who are capable of making their own decisions and switching jobs if the cruise line is paying well below average.

[ilikeanswers]

3 minutes ago, sanger727 said:

But the point I was making is that I personally don’t walk around asking every business I use how much they pay their employees and how they distribute the money I pay for their services. Why would cruises be different? 

 

I think your mistake is to assume that cruising is different. I think the concern is part of the growing contingent of people who do think about the businesses and business models they want to support. You have the small business initiatives, the buy local movement, you have co op shops, you have zero waste shops and some industry specific things like in Australia we had an issue with dairy farmers and pay they get from their milk so people started to abandon brands that were found to be under paying dairy farmers for their milk. Cruising has just become caught up in this movement of people who want to "shop better" as they call it. 

 

[sanger727]

57 minutes ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

I think your mistake is to assume that cruising is different. I think the concern is part of the growing contingent of people who do think about the businesses and business models they want to support. You have the small business initiatives, the buy local movement, you have co op shops, you have zero waste shops and some industry specific things like in Australia we had an issue with dairy farmers and pay they get from their milk so people started to abandon brands that were found to be under paying dairy farmers for their milk. Cruising has just become caught up in this movement of people who want to "shop better" as they call it. 

 

that may be. I live in the midwest in the US and a ‘shop better’ movement hasn’t really taken off here.

[RocketMan275]

1 hour ago, sanger727 said:

I guess I’m just confused as to why this concern seems so focused on cruise ships. When you are at Kroger do you ask the bagger how much they are paid and if they are treated well? 

 

1 hour ago, sanger727 said:

What does that have to do with anything? Everyone uses a wide variety of services provided by different companies in their everyday lives. Yes, this is a cruise forum so the focus of threads tends to be cruises. But the point I was making is that I personally don’t walk around asking every business I use how much they pay their employees and how they distribute the money I pay for their services. Why would cruises be different? 

You brought up the comparison between baggers at Kroger and cruise ship crew and asked why people don't ask baggers about pay and working conditions.  I explained why that is a poor analogy.

[NLH Arizona]

13 hours ago, Hlitner said:

The cruise lines created this problem and it might have worked except that we now see cruise passengers from all over the world.  Some of these folks do not believe in the "tipping" or "service charge" culture that we follow in North America. 

These people were always there.  They were the ones who didn't show up for the last night's dinner and those who avoided their Cabin Steward the last day, all so they didn't have to tip them.  

[donaldsc]

Was it really necessary for the OP to bring up this topic again.  It has been beaten to death over and over again on CC. Here is the deal:

 

1) Except for high end lines, all cruise lines have a "optional" required "tip"

2) The system stinks

3) There is no way that the cruise line will detail exactly what happens with the money.  We have to trust that it is fairly distributed.

4) The crew depends upon those monies for a significant percentage of their salary

5) If you don't pay the tip, you are hurting the crew, not the cruise line

6) The system will only change if 100% of the cruise lines decide together to change it.  This isn't going to happen because for many people, price is the driving point for cruise selection.

7) If they all did actually change it, the lines could probably be charged with an agreement to fix prices

8) As long as people are allowed to opt out by not paying the tip, they will.  You can't stop "cheap".

9) If you don't like points 1 through 8- don't cruise.

 

Have I missed anything?

 

DON

[gerryuk]

47 minutes ago, donaldsc said:

Was it really necessary for the OP to bring up this topic again.  It has been beaten to death over and over again on CC. Here is the deal:

 

1) Except for high end lines, all cruise lines have a "optional" required "tip"

Tell that to the likes of Costa, you have no option on many cruise lines.

2) The system stinks

Totally agree. 

3) There is no way that the cruise line will detail exactly what happens with the money.  We have to trust that it is fairly distributed.

And that's the biggest problem with shabby system.

4) The crew depends upon those monies for a significant percentage of their salary

And that's just it, they are employees and should be paid a decent salary from the cruise line, any tips should be a bonus. 

5) If you don't pay the tip, you are hurting the crew, not the cruise line.

Prove to me that every pound / dollar that I pay in tips is going to the crew and not in CEO bonuses and paying shareholders their dividends. 

6) The system will only change if 100% of the cruise lines decide together to change it.  This isn't going to happen because for many people, price is the driving point for cruise selection.

Eventually the cruise lines will wake up to the fact that their business model is becoming a PR disaster, and will have no choice but to change it.

7) If they all did actually change it, the lines could probably be charged with an agreement to fix prices

Each line will do their own thing in regards prices.

😎 As long as people are allowed to opt out by not paying the tip, they will.  You can't stop "cheap".

Again many cruise lines do not allow you to opt out. Many people think that employing staff as cheap and slave labour and then guilt tripping customers to give them handouts as part of their salary is abhorrent, its not about customers being "cheap".

9) If you don't like points 1 through 8- don't cruise.

And what will that do to the staffs salary?

 

Have I missed anything?

 

DON

 

[GUT2407]

9) If you don't like points 1 through 8- don't cruise.
 

or cruise and remove the auto grats, dsc, whatever they choose to call it, if that’s what they allow.

[NLH Arizona]

1 hour ago, gerryuk said:

Prove to me that every pound / dollar that I pay in tips is going to the crew and not in CEO bonuses and paying shareholders their dividends. 

 

Again many cruise lines do not allow you to opt out. Many people think that employing staff as cheap and slave labour and then guilt tripping customers to give them handouts as part of their salary is abhorrent, its not about customers being "cheap".

Prove to me that all or part of every dollar that I pay goes to CEO's bonuses and paying shareholders their dividends?

 

Other than Costa, which cruise lines don't allow you to opt out?  I'm sure if the crew is being paid slave labor, there wouldn't be a crew member on any cruise ship.  The salary guidelines are under the Maritime Labor Convention who sets the minimum salary and the crew members are paid a salary that they agree upon and have signed a contract. 

 

 

Edited January 4, 2020 by NLH Arizona