Good News / Good Progress towards back to Cruising....

[HMR74]

19 minutes ago, ChucktownSteve said:

 

And just how do you propose to convince the teacher's union to go back to work?  They wanted more money, they got it. They wanted vaccinations, they got it and still refused to go back.  How can you get small business back open when the politicians refuse to let them open?

 

Pipe dream.

these issues require compromises to get deals done and in many cases compromises are not and cannot be reached. Small family restaurants had very little cushion to keep going. And real estate, eg malls, and office buildings are "underwater".  The reverberations will be felt through the economy for years.

Ideally when the professionals make their recommendations on situations like this  they have a view of the entire picture, but apparently not in this case.

 

Thus, I am kind of surprised that the Leaders of the big cruise companies basically have caved to the CDC, so much so that if this goes on into 2022 as Chucktown Steve fears, just how the heck do they stay in business. Dairy Queens in the north only vacation for 3 months a year, but they have a relatively small "nut to crack".

 

This is getting to look like a 2 year hiatus if they don't get progress  accomplished soon. Who would have thunk this?

 

Already some folks have had replacement cruises cancelled and maybe the replacement to the replacement cruises cancelled.

 

I have a spring 2022 cruise planned and I am beginning to get concerned about a cruise over a year from now. Makes you wonder what is really happening .

 

At some point we all start saying the heck with it.

 

 

 

[LGW59]

6 minutes ago, HMR74 said:

these issues require compromises to get deals done and in many cases compromises are not and cannot be reached. Small family restaurants had very little cushion to keep going. And real estate, eg malls, and office buildings are "underwater".  The reverberations will be felt through the economy for years.

Ideally when the professionals make their recommendations on situations like this  they have a view of the entire picture, but apparently not in this case.

 

Thus, I am kind of surprised that the Leaders of the big cruise companies basically have caved to the CDC, so much so that if this goes on into 2022 as Chucktown Steve fears, just how the heck do they stay in business. Dairy Queens in the north only vacation for 3 months a year, but they have a relatively small "nut to crack".

 

This is getting to look like a 2 year hiatus if they don't get progress  accomplished soon. Who would have thunk this?

 

Already some folks have had replacement cruises cancelled and maybe the replacement to the replacement cruises cancelled.

 

I have a spring 2022 cruise planned and I am beginning to get concerned about a cruise over a year from now. Makes you wonder what is really happening .

 

At some point we all start saying the heck with it.

 

 

 

I am worried far more about other things than my 2022 cruise and anyone else's "fear" of their future luxury cruise.  BTW Dairy Queen 3 months vacation, 3 months?  

[HMR74]

2 minutes ago, LGW59 said:

I am worried far more about other things than my 2022 cruise and anyone else's "fear" of their future luxury cruise.  BTW Dairy Queen 3 months vacation, 3 months?  

A)

I know you have seen my other posts on this basic subject so you know I have priorities straight.

 

However,  we had a family meeting on this cruise subject this evening  and basically said "the hell with it" and we picked a date this summer where if its all resolved to our liking we green light it, if not, we lose a few thousand and move on, especially with the higher prices. As one daughter noted, why cancel now-let it ride til final payment date.

 

I was serious in the administrative complexities of cruising now; Refundable/nonrefundable, perks, packages, lift and shift, FCC's at 100% or 125% or 150%, but met with much higher prices.

 

I always said cruising is a way to avoid the stresses of daily life, but once the stresses of that get into cruising, it's not worth it.

 

B) I agree, there are a number of more serious big picture issues to be concerned with. The beauty of a cruise is you get to get away from it all for a brief period. Very few decisions need to be made, ya most never need to worry about where dinner will be or how to get there, Its a no brainier, almost shut the brain off. . Biggest problems on board is traffic congestion at elevators, solved by the stairs, and the tumult at the buffet. Or the wait for the tender in port.  The real problems of life will be on the front doorstep waiting for your return. Most of them are out of our control.

 

BTW, one of the concerns we should have is the US spending deficits. Nobody seems to care. A measly 15 billion, of the just passed $1.9 Trillion  would save the cruise lines. We are a country dependent on debt spending and without that our economy and markets would  have cratered long ago. With deficits running wild, there will be consequences.  Thank about that for a minute and our standard of living, and safety. Global wars are fought over money, food and energy. 

Food for thought, the US Bond market is in turmoil.

Who wants to buy a bond paying a couple of %. Buy Gamestop, get rich quick. Or Bitcoin.

 

3) and most important, yes, I have 3 Dairy Queens near me and all 3 close for 3 months. Our local independent soft serve closes for 4 when they go to their home in Hawaii. A few frozen custard places close for the winter.

 

Take care!

 

 

 

[nocl]

2 hours ago, HMR74 said:

I saw that but thats for state or county mandates, where is comparison to non mandates. 
 

i need cliff notes.

it was a comparison between mandate and non mandate counties.  before the mandates there was no difference between the two sets, there was after the mandates the longer the mandates were in place the greater the difference.

[ChucktownSteve]

Compare FL & TX's covid results with NY & CA's results.  The former are open, the latter are still in major lock-down.  Schools open vs. schools closed. Businesses open vs. businesses closed. etc...

 

https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210211/variants-spread-as-california-surpasses-ny-in-covid-deaths

 

Variants Spread as CA Surpasses NY in COVID Deaths

By Ralph Ellis

Feb. 12, 2021 -- California Gov. Gavin Newsom announced that two cases of the South African coronavirus variant have been detected in the San Francisco Bay area.

Speaking on Wednesday at a news conference, Newsom didn’t provide any details about the cases in Alameda and Santa Clara counties....

As of Thursday afternoon, Johns Hopkins University’s Coronavirus Resource Center reported that California had recorded 45,506 deaths, compared to New York’s 45,450. Texas has 40,200 deaths and Florida 28,382. 

 

Life in FL has been altered with safe distancing and the suggested precautions however we have been working, shopping, eating out and working out in gyms. Our economy is stronger with people's psyche in a better place compared to the locked down states.  This was even before the covid vaccinations were administered.  It's even better now that there's been a strong vaccination program in place.

 

What good has the oppressive lock down procedures really accomplished?

[cluso]

2 hours ago, ChucktownSteve said:

What good has the oppressive lock down procedures really accomplished?

 

Saved lives and the spread of the sickness...😷

[ChucktownSteve]

16 minutes ago, cluso said:

 

Saved lives and the spread of the sickness...😷

 

What's your source?

 

Then how do you explain the difference in deaths between NY & CA vs. TX and FL?

These four states are the top four populations in the country.

 

What are the most populated states in the United States? Here is a list of the top ten most populated states in the country:

1. California (Population: 39,747,267)
2. Texas (Population: 29,087,070)
3. Florida (Population: 21,646,155)
4. New York (Population: 19,491,339)
5. Pennsylvania (Population: 12,813,969)
6. Illinois (Population: 12,700,381)
7. Ohio (Population: 11,718,568)
8. Georgia (Population: 10,627,767)
9. North Carolina (Population: 10,497,741)
10. Michigan (Population: 10,020,472)

Edited March 9, 2021 by ChucktownSteve

[hcat]

From post by HMR74:

"

Already some folks have had replacement cruises cancelled and maybe the replacement to the replacement cruises cancelled.

 

My question is ...How long should the Cruise line be "allowed"  to push forward cruise dates while  customers are still stuck holding fcc and advance bookings?

  Wish they would offer us a buy back deal..we,'d take a 50%  refund  and would move on.  We would love to use our fcc but seems not happening anytime soon.

 

 

 

[Ride-The-Waves]

The real problem with returning to cruising in whatever form that will take, is that the cruise lines themselves are dragging their feet complying with the CDC requirement to provide plans/protocols for on board activities.  CDC requested this months ago.  So far - nothing from the cruise lines.  They, apparently, have no idea how they will maintain required protocols on board, social distancing, and wearing PPE.  Until the cruise lines themselves develop their proposals and provide them to the CDC, nothing is going to happen.

[paulh84]

3 hours ago, ChucktownSteve said:

What good has the oppressive lock down procedures really accomplished?

 

Australia. 

[markeb]

38 minutes ago, ChucktownSteve said:

 

What's your source?

 

Then how do you explain the difference in deaths between NY & CA vs. TX and FL?

These four states are the top four populations in the country.

 

What are the most populated states in the United States? Here is a list of the top ten most populated states in the country:

1. California (Population: 39,747,267)
2. Texas (Population: 29,087,070)
3. Florida (Population: 21,646,155)
4. New York (Population: 19,491,339)
5. Pennsylvania (Population: 12,813,969)
6. Illinois (Population: 12,700,381)
7. Ohio (Population: 11,718,568)
8. Georgia (Population: 10,627,767)
9. North Carolina (Population: 10,497,741)
10. Michigan (Population: 10,020,472)

 

Trend chart from CDC: https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#compare-trends_newdeathsper100k

 

Death rates per 100K population since the beginning. New York and New Jersey are driven almost exclusively by extremely high rates in the first 60 days when there was very little information on treating actual patients, and the extremely high rate in NYC. There was a mid-summer spike in New York and New Jersey, and then Florida and Texas take over with higher rates per 100K. Right now I doubt there's a statistical difference between any of them. I would have expected NYC in particular to have spiked over the holidays from population density and celebrations by most of the world's major religious groups, most of whom have heavy populations in NYC; the fact that it doesn't appear to have spiked as much is at least evidence that those control measure worked.

[Oceangoer2]

3 hours ago, ChucktownSteve said:

Compare FL & TX's covid results with NY & CA's results.  The former are open, the latter are still in major lock-down.  Schools open vs. schools closed. Businesses open vs. businesses closed. etc...

 

https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210211/variants-spread-as-california-surpasses-ny-in-covid-deaths

 

Variants Spread as CA Surpasses NY in COVID Deaths

By Ralph Ellis

Feb. 12, 2021 -- California Gov. Gavin Newsom announced that two cases of the South African coronavirus variant have been detected in the San Francisco Bay area.

Speaking on Wednesday at a news conference, Newsom didn’t provide any details about the cases in Alameda and Santa Clara counties....

As of Thursday afternoon, Johns Hopkins University’s Coronavirus Resource Center reported that California had recorded 45,506 deaths, compared to New York’s 45,450. Texas has 40,200 deaths and Florida 28,382. 

 

Life in FL has been altered with safe distancing and the suggested precautions however we have been working, shopping, eating out and working out in gyms. Our economy is stronger with people's psyche in a better place compared to the locked down states.  This was even before the covid vaccinations were administered.  It's even better now that there's been a strong vaccination program in place.

 

What good has the oppressive lock down procedures really accomplished?

Happy for you!  Lived your life to the fullest during this difficult time.  Too bad we can't ask those Floridians who have passed from the virus.  Perhaps if the recommendations had been followed, Florida may have had the very lowest covid death rate in the country....Just saying.

[TeeRick]

3 hours ago, ChucktownSteve said:

Compare FL & TX's covid results with NY & CA's results.  The former are open, the latter are still in major lock-down.  Schools open vs. schools closed. Businesses open vs. businesses closed. etc...

 

https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210211/variants-spread-as-california-surpasses-ny-in-covid-deaths

 

Variants Spread as CA Surpasses NY in COVID Deaths

By Ralph Ellis

Feb. 12, 2021 -- California Gov. Gavin Newsom announced that two cases of the South African coronavirus variant have been detected in the San Francisco Bay area.

Speaking on Wednesday at a news conference, Newsom didn’t provide any details about the cases in Alameda and Santa Clara counties....

As of Thursday afternoon, Johns Hopkins University’s Coronavirus Resource Center reported that California had recorded 45,506 deaths, compared to New York’s 45,450. Texas has 40,200 deaths and Florida 28,382. 

 

Life in FL has been altered with safe distancing and the suggested precautions however we have been working, shopping, eating out and working out in gyms. Our economy is stronger with people's psyche in a better place compared to the locked down states.  This was even before the covid vaccinations were administered.  It's even better now that there's been a strong vaccination program in place.

 

What good has the oppressive lock down procedures really accomplished?

Steve in general I believe that lockdowns in the USA have not worked very well.  And they have been far from "oppressive".  They have been lockdowns in name only- with plenty of exceptions. Some states did not even have anything close to a lockdown.  Perhaps they worked to some extent a year ago when everybody was in a panic and much more willing to comply.  But they were still pretty weak and unenforceable. Comparing states is truly apples and oranges.  The virus hit at different times and different peaks in different parts of the US.  It came back in states (and countries) later on.  Humans just cannot be completely locked down or even partially locked down very long.   But-------- we do not actually need oppressive lockdowns.  We do need continued masking, social distancing and hygienic procedures.  For now until the vaccines do their magic.  Kind of simple.  

[HMR74]

1 hour ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

The real problem with returning to cruising in whatever form that will take, is that the cruise lines themselves are dragging their feet complying with the CDC requirement to provide plans/protocols for on board activities.  CDC requested this months ago.  So far - nothing from the cruise lines.  They, apparently, have no idea how they will maintain required protocols on board, social distancing, and wearing PPE.  Until the cruise lines themselves develop their proposals and provide them to the CDC, nothing is going to happen.

in the 67 page "joint" report from the CDC and the cruise lines last month, the CDC acknowledged that the "requests" it made would be too stringent to allow the cruise lines to run a business (my summary take on what they said).  Bureaucracy.

 

on the entire issue like this  including lockdowns,   there is no apparent adult discussion on the risk vs reward aspects of a real world. eg, close down businesses for 15 months and many lives are affected,  and its been documented that drug use is up, alcoholic use is up, suicides and other mental health issues are up. People are depressed and have time on their hands. And there are a lot of people in that category that we here might rarely have contact with.

 

Many people chose  or were forced to not get elective surgery and that has consequences. People have avoided going to dentists and that has consequences. Children in school are paying a lasting cost of development price.

The Govt and Federal Reserve have printed trillions of dollars  to try to get things going  again. We have yet to see the bankruptcies of many businesses including office and mall space. A lot of blowback coming there.

 

My hammer and nail comment last night applies to a lot of issues--Organizations like CDC look at this narrowly.

 

Our costs, not just financial, but physical and mental will endure for years and those costs will not be tabulated.

Although already the CDC has admitted that just 6% of the deaths were solely attributed to Covid while the other 94% dying with covid "involved", their word,  also had an average of 3.8 comorbodities.

If you analyze it, its the elderly that have comorbidities and they have or had real serious life threatening issues which adversely affect life expectancy exponentially the more of those comorbidities are present. There are a number of "young folks" who have co morbidities, and know it, , know it but deny it, or do not know they are an accident waiting to happen. And they too are at risk of a virus which stresses human systems more than most viruses.

 

That's it in a nutshell, but I think, and this is my opinion so don't go jumping off, is we should have had a more focused action plan on this.  But early on there was public infighting and a lot of that was politics and bureaucracy and media hype.

 

summary/analogy:

A great quarterback sees the entire field  as he steps up to the line and it "computes" in his mind immediately, and runs the play, with a risk reward quotient,  like a great orchestra conductor.

 

We are relying on the CDC WHO and NIH, and they do not have a great QB or Conductor. A lot of good technicians/players, but it was not brought together in the best way.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 9, 2021 by HMR74

[markeb]

1 minute ago, HMR74 said:

Although already the CDC has admitted that just 6% of the deaths were solely attributed to Covid while the other 94% dying with covid "involved", their word,  also had an average of 3.8 comorbodities.

 

 

No. 6% of death certificates were coded as COVID19 only, which cannot be correct. Cause of death should have included pneumonia, multiple organ system failure, etc. At least the organ system that led to death. This has been discussed over and over and is a recognized reporting difficulty. I haven't looked at the comorbidity data in a long time. Ultimately, all that information combining clinical presentations, comorbidities, etc., can be reviewed to actually try to understand why people died from the diseases caused by SARS-CoV-2, but you have to code the death certificates to include the virus and the organ systems involved in cause of death, or with over 500K deaths attributed to COVID19, you'd never be able to do that.

 

I generally agree with almost everything else. I don't even think the discussion is political, but you almost can't have it these days without that happening. Systems exist to have those conversations, but they're not at the CDC or within the authorities of the CDC. The CDC is charged with viewing things narrowly. Other systems that are charged with a broader view didn't appear to get used, and I don't actually know how they would have functioned at any point over the last 20+ years.

[HMR74]

18 minutes ago, TeeRick said:

Steve in general I believe that lockdowns in the USA have not worked very well.  And they have been far from "oppressive".  They have been lockdowns in name only- with plenty of exceptions. Some states did not even have anything close to a lockdown.  Perhaps they worked to some extent a year ago when everybody was in a panic and much more willing to comply.  But they were still pretty weak and unenforceable. Comparing states is truly apples and oranges.  The virus hit at different times and different peaks in different parts of the US.  It came back in states (and countries) later on.  Humans just cannot be completely locked down or even partially locked down very long.   But-------- we do not actually need oppressive lockdowns.  We do need continued masking, social distancing and hygienic procedures.  For now until the vaccines do their magic.  Kind of simple.  

If you have a family owned business the lockdown was oppressive.

If you won residential property, the non eviction rule was oppressive.

My Dentist, a friends was closed down for 3 moths and he continued to pay his people-he survived but it was oppressive.

Its oppressive to hotels and restaurants and retail in general,

as I mentioned above, we have yet to see the real issues surface.

 

this will be one of those watch and learn situations.

 

People will say how can you put a price tag on human life. Yeah, that's an issue. But that was part of Obamacare where if someone was  too old and too ill,  it was deemed to be an unnecessary cost at that point. Easy to say, hard to implement. Zeke Emanual , who participated in writing Obamacare wrote a thesis on that ~ 20  years ago saying healthcare specifically medicare was going to be too expensive thus we should limit it for people over 55 (yes 55)and under age 14 (he said that with an explanation of why spend money if the youngster cant fend for themselves) -talk about heartless.

 

The CEO who mentored me decades ago explained "futile care" to me and said it would eventually come-eg, not spend huge money to extend life for just a limited time--I was not a happy camper,  on that, however, in life, hard choices need to be made and there will be substantial disagreement. I am not an advocate of the Zeke Emanual school, but I am aware of the issue and it cannot be totally ignored.

 

 

 

 

[HMR74]

14 minutes ago, markeb said:

 

No. 6% of death certificates were coded as COVID19 only, which cannot be correct. Cause of death should have included pneumonia, multiple organ system failure, etc. At least the organ system that led to death. This has been discussed over and over and is a recognized reporting difficulty. I haven't looked at the comorbidity data in a long time. Ultimately, all that information combining clinical presentations, comorbidities, etc., can be reviewed to actually try to understand why people died from the diseases caused by SARS-CoV-2, but you have to code the death certificates to include the virus and the organ systems involved in cause of death, or with over 500K deaths attributed to COVID19, you'd never be able to do that.

 

I generally agree with almost everything else. I don't even think the discussion is political, but you almost can't have it these days without that happening. Systems exist to have those conversations, but they're not at the CDC or within the authorities of the CDC. The CDC is charged with viewing things narrowly. Other systems that are charged with a broader view didn't appear to get used, and I don't actually know how they would have functioned at any point over the last 20+ years.

this discussion gets into coding of cause of death and originally the CDC which puts out directive on this type of issue, sent out a directive with form attached driving cause of death to be covid.

But that's not the kicker.

 

We know the medicare system is loaded with fraud and waste, we know the regular health care system too. That's never really been addressed excerpt when a congressman gets contributions and gets caught favoring legislation.

 

A year ago, Medicare raised the reimbursement for

a) treating a patient with covid

b) use of a veltilator

c) a death by covid

 

It should not be a surprise that unscrupulous "professionals" and organizations took advantage of this.

 

Now, we know during covid people got extra unemployment benefits. Some amounted to more than they were being paid.

 

My wife and I each received debt cards from our state and its more cumbersome and time consuming to try to get it fixed  so I just threw them in my drawer. I have been self employed for a  couple of decades and my wife retired a few years ago-so we definitely were not qualified.

 

My daughter, adult and an active working atty also got a debit card. 

 

This was either fraud or incompetent government. I read they are still trying to find out f they should go after people who got it like myself, but used it, or not.

 

They should just turn on a flashing sign "come and get free money" (that the government does not have)

 

I have other examples of seriously incorrect data from the US government, eg, CPI, used for social security payment increase, is severely understated, meaning we, if seniors  are seriously being cut short on payments. As bad, with the Fed keeping interest rates low, we cannot as easily  just retire and live off interest.

 

Its not easy to take 5 cruises a  year when interest rates are 1%. (some of this is sarcastic humor, but the underlying issues are real.

 

My point is we cannot trust our government on a lot of issues for various reasons. Its why its called a bureaucracy.

 

Its better we make our own decisions.  We individually are responsible to make our own decisions based on our own due diligence,  and if a cruise line does not offer adequate safety provisions , I will not sail with that cruise line. Just like I would not fly certain airlines, or on certain airplanes. Or buy certain cars.

 

I think that's what is supposed to happen in a free economy/country. If a restaurant is bad,  and if enough people agree, it goes out of business.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[basil1]

On 2/22/2021 at 8:26 PM, cruiserchuck said:

 

It will be the authorities, not Celebrity, that says go.  I doubt there will be any Celebrity sailings any time soon.  If cases drop enough to make Celebrity think it can start, I believe the authorities will still block them, unless/until the virus has been totally wiped out.  No country wants another Diamond/Grand Princess incident on their hands.  

I am not sure which organization, either the CDC or WHO, but they said that SarsCoV2 isn't going away. It is here to stay so if it has to go away for folks to cruise then it's not going to happen (according to what I read about the virus being here to stay)

[Oceangoer2]

Some of these posts are becoming dissertations...qualified or not....and just a word war. .. which seem to be long explanations of someone's opinion.   I would skip the whole comment but there just might be something in it that will help the average person's insight into what might help us get through this.  There must be a simpler way to get the point across....bullet points or more concise wording?

[TeeRick]

2 hours ago, basil1 said:

I am not sure which organization, either the CDC or WHO, but they said that SarsCoV2 isn't going away. It is here to stay so if it has to go away for folks to cruise then it's not going to happen (according to what I read about the virus being here to stay)

SARS-CoV-2 does not have to go away completely for resumption of normal activities and cruising.  That is not the immediate goal.  And if it is a long term goal it will not be achieved for many many years.  It just needs to be managed through vaccines and our normal medical infrastructure.  In fact most viruses are in this category and are effectively managed.  Every year.  Only a small number (like polio and smallpox) have been managed to extinction and it took decades.

[ChucktownSteve]

4 hours ago, markeb said:

 

Trend chart from CDC: https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#compare-trends_newdeathsper100k

 

Death rates per 100K population since the beginning. New York and New Jersey are driven almost exclusively by extremely high rates in the first 60 days when there was very little information on treating actual patients, and the extremely high rate in NYC. There was a mid-summer spike in New York and New Jersey, and then Florida and Texas take over with higher rates per 100K. Right now I doubt there's a statistical difference between any of them. I would have expected NYC in particular to have spiked over the holidays from population density and celebrations by most of the world's major religious groups, most of whom have heavy populations in NYC; the fact that it doesn't appear to have spiked as much is at least evidence that those control measure worked.

 

Your data from the first 60 days is irrelevant in today's environment  Once the characteristics of the virus were understood, maintaining the draconian measures throughout the more than one year were oppressive.

 

Yes there were going to be spikes everywhere.  So comparing the total deaths due to covid, while  those numbers are suspect, there's not much evidence to show that long term, the lock down was any more effective in states that locked vs. those that didn't.

 

Now can we please get back to cruising since I'm retired and don't need to work?  I more than paid my dues getting here.   I need to enjoy my final years before I become "wheelchair regretful." Regretful that I didn't do what I could have before it was too late.

Edited March 9, 2021 by ChucktownSteve

[ipeeinthepool]

1 hour ago, Oceangoer2 said:

Some of these posts are becoming dissertations...qualified or not....and just a word war. .. which seem to be long explanations of someone's opinion.  

 

They seem to forget that the attention span of many on CC is about 2 paragraphs.

[markeb]

8 hours ago, ChucktownSteve said:

As of Thursday afternoon, Johns Hopkins University’s Coronavirus Resource Center reported that California had recorded 45,506 deaths, compared to New York’s 45,450. Texas has 40,200 deaths and Florida 28,382. 

 

3 minutes ago, ChucktownSteve said:

Your data from the first 60 days is irrelevant in today's environment  Once the characteristics of the virus were understood, maintaining the draconian measures throughout the more than one year were oppressive.

 

Pretty sure your numbers are cumulative. They're actually higher from the CDC. So, yes, the first 60 days are important. Hopkins today shows NY 48,401, CA 54,316, FL 31,764, TX 45,411. Those are all cumulative, from the beginning of the pandemic. California, Florida, and Texas all recorded their highest number of deaths in January 2021; New York recorded its highest in April of 2020. Without that single month, New York would have 26,634 deaths, below Florida and well below Texas.

 

Whether the measures were oppressive is your opinion, and not shared by everyone on this board, or in the country.

[ChucktownSteve]

5 minutes ago, markeb said:

Whether the measures were oppressive is your opinion, and not shared by everyone on this board, or in the country.

 

You're correct it's an opinion.  I owned several small businesses in my working life but fortunately have not been affected personally by the locked down states.  I used to mentor start up businesses through SCORE.  So yes I feel for the small businesses that were shut down or didn't survive due to arbitrary rules. The small businesses couldn't open but the large ones, which are able to donate to politicians, could.  I understand what the small business person went through.

 

I also understand what you said about not everyone on this board sharing the opinion about oppressiveness. There are a lot of people on this board who don't understand the entrepreneurial mind set or spirit since they've never walked in their shoes. It requires a special breed of person.  Besides, wouldn't it be a boring world if everyone had the same opinion?

[UnorigionalName]

4 hours ago, HMR74 said:

this discussion gets into coding of cause of death and originally the CDC which puts out directive on this type of issue, sent out a directive with form attached driving cause of death to be covid.

But that's not the kicker.

 

We know the medicare system is loaded with fraud and waste, we know the regular health care system too. That's never really been addressed excerpt when a congressman gets contributions and gets caught favoring legislation.

 

A year ago, Medicare raised the reimbursement for

a) treating a patient with covid

b) use of a veltilator

c) a death by covid

 

It should not be a surprise that unscrupulous "professionals" and organizations took advantage of this.

 

Now, we know during covid people got extra unemployment benefits. Some amounted to more than they were being paid.

 

My wife and I each received debt cards from our state and its more cumbersome and time consuming to try to get it fixed  so I just threw them in my drawer. I have been self employed for a  couple of decades and my wife retired a few years ago-so we definitely were not qualified.

 

My daughter, adult and an active working atty also got a debit card. 

 

This was either fraud or incompetent government. I read they are still trying to find out f they should go after people who got it like myself, but used it, or not.

 

They should just turn on a flashing sign "come and get free money" (that the government does not have)

 

I have other examples of seriously incorrect data from the US government, eg, CPI, used for social security payment increase, is severely understated, meaning we, if seniors  are seriously being cut short on payments. As bad, with the Fed keeping interest rates low, we cannot as easily  just retire and live off interest.

 

Its not easy to take 5 cruises a  year when interest rates are 1%. (some of this is sarcastic humor, but the underlying issues are real.

 

My point is we cannot trust our government on a lot of issues for various reasons. Its why its called a bureaucracy.

 

Its better we make our own decisions.  We individually are responsible to make our own decisions based on our own due diligence,  and if a cruise line does not offer adequate safety provisions , I will not sail with that cruise line. Just like I would not fly certain airlines, or on certain airplanes. Or buy certain cars.

 

I think that's what is supposed to happen in a free economy/country. If a restaurant is bad,  and if enough people agree, it goes out of business.

 

you are very wrong.  How can you have such strong emotions when you completely are wrong with the basic facts?