What is fair

[iancal]

I do not know where ethics comes into the equation.

 

HAL's sales terms are clearly outlined. You have no recourse after final payment. These terms are not hidden.

 

It is incumbent on you to understand the sales terms/contract. If you are too lazy or too careless to do so then the issue lies squarely in your court. Why try to push the blame on others. Look in the mirror for the author of your supposed misfortune.

 

You can hardly call HAL unethical or accuse them of following untoward business practices when these terms and conditions are clearly spelled out and are generally accepted T's and C's within the industry.

Edited May 31, 2016 by iancal

[CruiserBruce]

There are many businesses out there that have a Policy of " If our price drops below what you paid within 30 days or a competitor offers a lower price they will refund the difference.

We are not talking about 5 or 10%, It was a 37% drop Give me a break on the old "Buy Beware' and/or "Read the Fine Print " And Yes, they should give it to everyone entitled. Can you imagine how we would be singing their praises and the good press they would get.

Do you call the Cruise industry's behavior "Good Ethics or Bad Ethics or is there a special category call Cruise Industry Ethics"

 

The problem here is your definition of "ethics" is centered totally on what "would be nice" and to your benefit, and doesn't match the industry. Yes, there are stores that refund without question within certain specifications. They advertise that, and they deliver. That is keeping their promise to the consumer, which is good ethics. The fact that "many" (questionable if "many", but no doubt, some do)businesses out there that do this is absolutely isn't compelling on any other business or industry.

 

That practice is not required, ethically or legally. It is simply a great thing about some stores. When you purchased your cruise, at no time did HAL (or will most other cruise lines) promise you a no refund/no questions or price adjustment policy.

 

There is a significant difference between what "would be nice" and what is actually done. Just because HAL doesn't do what you think they should doesn't make HAL unethical.

Edited May 31, 2016 by CruiserBruce

[Bailey & Sophie]

The super market I go to, policy is "you can return anything you buy for any reason, no questions asked" which is why I continue to shop there.

 

Legally HAL is right, but Ethically......... No Way !

Where do you shop?? I work at a grocery store with that very same philosophy!! Let me know - I'm curious.

[sail7seas]

And you do this: return a certain product and then buy it on sale?

 

So much all this talk aboutethics:)

[DaveOKC]

Where do you shop?? I work at a grocery store with that very same philosophy!! Let me know - I'm curious.

 

I worked for supermarkets for 40 years and everyone of them had the same policy. However, some chains will ask for your name and address to avoid "repeat" return customers who are trying to game the system.

[Fouremco]

I have spent since Jan.2015 til Mar. 1st 2016 89 days on HAL cruises and it apparently does not mean a thing to them.

If you've spent that much time cruising with HAL, you must surely know the policies. Like booking a guarantee, you can't complain about the outcome. Ethical behaviour is a two-way street. Berating HAL because your booking strategy didn't work out is hardly ethical on your part.

Edited May 31, 2016 by Fouremco

[RocketMan275]

There are many businesses out there that have a Policy of " If our price drops below what you paid within 30 days or a competitor offers a lower price they will refund the difference.

We are not talking about 5 or 10%, It was a 37% drop Give me a break on the old "Buy Beware' and/or "Read the Fine Print " And Yes, they should give it to everyone entitled. Can you imagine how we would be singing their praises and the good press they would get.

Do you call the Cruise industry's behavior "Good Ethics or Bad Ethics or is there a special category call Cruise Industry Ethics"

 

If the price goes up, do you do the "ethical" thing and insist upon paying the higher price?

[Itasca]

've learned the hard way. life is not always

Fair.

 

[]\b]

The best operational definition of "fair" I've come to believe is "as I would have it."

 

Another way to see this is The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard (Matthew 20).

The laborers got a denarius for their work, the cruiser gets his cruise.

[serendipity1499]

A week after I booked my 12 day cruise at $1798 on the Osterdam (obstructed view) as a single occupancy, HAL reduced that category by 37% ($674.00) to $1124. One alternative they offered was $300 more (making my fare $2098) and they would give me a Verandah Cabin (book now price $1748) or $50 less than I have already paid for my obstructed view cabin.

I have spent since Jan.2015 til Mar. 1st 2016 89 days on HAL cruises and it apparently does not mean a thing to them.

Anyone want to defend HAL ?

Understand what you are saying but HAL must treat everyone the same.. When you purchase a car & agree to that price you must pay it.. Our Friends could go into the dealer & get the same car cheaper an hour after we made the same purhase, but that was because they took advantage of a better deal..

 

Last week we booked an 11 day cruise for 4 people in two Verandah cabins.. My Husband & I are 4 star Mariners with 300 actual days sailed on HAL...My Husband & I each received $200 per person off the fare as 4 star Mariners but could not get the $100 Beverage Card, the Prepaid Grats & the 200 Internet Minutes which was on a special sale for only last week..

 

However, Our Friends paid full fare, which was $200 per person more than we did & got with it 200 Free Internet minutes, Prepaid Gratuties of $275 & a $100 Beverage Card..

 

Our Travel Agent is trying to tell us that our $200 per person is worth $25 more than our Friends Paid, but I say they forgot the free internet minutes..

 

IMO we should then receive the 200 Free Internet Minutes, which I really don't want only because I try not to use the internet when on a cruise..

 

However, I believe that HAL should at least give us the $100 Beverage Card.. I'm not sure we'll get it, but there is no harm in trying..

 

 

Edited May 31, 2016 by serendipity1499

[navybankerteacher]

There are many businesses out there that have a Policy of " If our price drops below what you paid within 30 days or a competitor offers a lower price they will refund the difference.

We are not talking about 5 or 10%, It was a 37% drop Give me a break on the old "Buy Beware' and/or "Read the Fine Print " And Yes, they should give it to everyone entitled. Can you imagine how we would be singing their praises and the good press they would get.

Do you call the Cruise industry's behavior "Good Ethics or Bad Ethics or is there a special category call Cruise Industry Ethics"

 

I suggest you try to comprehend the meaning of "ethics" -- I suspect you think it is somewhat synonymous with "generous" : it really isn't.

[SilvertoGold]

Understand what you are saying but HAL must treat everyone the same.. When you purchase a car & agree to that price you must pay it.. Our Friends could go into the dealer & get the same car cheaper an hour after we made the same purhase, but that was because they took advantage of a better deal..

 

Last week we booked an 11 day cruise for 4 people in two Verandah cabins.. My Husband & I are 4 star Mariners with 300 actual days sailed on HAL...My Husband & I each received $200 per person off the fare as 4 star Mariners but could not get the $100 Beverage Card, the Prepaid Grats & the 200 Internet Minutes which was on a special sale for only last week..

 

However, Our Friends paid full fare, which was $200 per person more than we did & got with it 200 Free Internet minutes, Prepaid Gratuties of $275 & a $100 Beverage Card..

 

Our Travel Agent is trying to tell us that our $200 per person is worth $25 more than our Friends Paid, but I say they forgot the free internet minutes..

 

IMO we should then receive the 200 Free Internet Minutes, which I really don't want only because I try not to use the internet when on a cruise..

 

However, I believe that HAL should at least give us the $100 Beverage Card.. I'm not sure we'll get it, but there is no harm in trying..

 

 

Is this a case of not being able to combine promos?

Haven't heard much about that for quite a while, but it used to be a big topic on this board.

 

How much are the 200 internet minutes worth?

 

Your friends have 50 PP Bev Card + tips of 137.50 PP = 187.50 PP plus whatever the internet minutes are worth.

 

This makes one think, doesn't it?

[Hlitner]

We also think the term "ethics" is "unethically" being applied in this circumstance :). What we are talking about is a legal contract between a buyer (cruiser) and seller (cruise line). When you make your deposit you are entering into a legal contract (the deposit is "consideration" under the law) whereas the cruise line agrees to provide (in accordance with their written terms) the cruise at the price you booked! The cruise line has no obligation, ethically or legally, to later adjust their price because of price drops...just like they cannot simply increase your price in the case of a price increase.

 

We have to wonder if the OP would think it is unethical that she pay the price she booked...in the event that the cruise line had a large price increase! By the logic of the OP, she should happily agree to pay the higher price because this would be "ethical." We think not.

 

Hank

[igraf]

Let's turn the tables for a moment. Suppose that HAL decided to give the crew a raise and consequently increased fares after you booked. Would you agree to pay the increased fare, or would you insist that HAL honor the price that you agreed to pay at the time of booking?

 

One reason that they cut prices near the sailing date is because it then becomes more difficult to book airfare at a reasonable price, thus limiting potential last minute sales.

 

Having said all that, I do think that the price cut as you describe will cause a lot of bad feelings. I would limit last minute discounts to perhaps 20%.

 

igraf

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

A week after I booked my 12 day cruise at $1798 on the Osterdam (obstructed view) as a single occupancy, HAL reduced that category by 37% ($674.00) to $1124. One alternative they offered was $300 more (making my fare $2098) and they would give me a Verandah Cabin (book now price $1748) or $50 less than I have already paid for my obstructed view cabin.

I have spent since Jan.2015 til Mar. 1st 2016 89 days on HAL cruises and it apparently does not mean a thing to them.

Anyone want to defend HAL ?

[RuthC]

You've not answered the posed question is the reduced price after final payment. That makes a huge difference in what is "fair".

 

If it is after final payment, then HAL is being quite fair, yes.

You are the one not being fair if you think HAL should reduce the fare you agreed to pay after final payment.

 

If it is still not after final payment, then that would change things considerably.

 

I have to assume, since you have failed to clarify which side of the final payment date the fare was reduced, that it was after. Otherwise, you would have said so as a way to bolster your point of view.

[serendipity1499]

Is this a case of not being able to combine promos?

Haven't heard much about that for quite a while, but it used to be a big topic on this board.

 

How much are the 200 internet minutes worth?

 

Your friends have 50 PP Bev Card + tips of 137.50 PP = 187.50 PP plus whatever the internet minutes are worth.

 

This makes one think, doesn't it?

 

Yes that is correct..These are two different Promo's which can't be combined..

The lower price of $200 came to me in an e-mail today as a new Promo good till mid June I think, but they gave it to us last week..

 

I have no idea what the Internet minutes are worth, because they usually have a special sale on board.. We've only used the Internet on our Longer cruises..Forget what we paid on our Pinsendam cruise in 2013..

 

Our 300 days on HAL are not all on the less expensive fares either..Even though we previously booked outside cabins, over 100 days were between $375 to $500 per night because they were on the special itinerary's in the Amazon & South America on the Prinsendam..

 

SIZE]

[Bodger]

I have a simple rule. "Never look at the pricing after final payment."

 

As a result I have never been disappointed!

 

John

[papaflamingo]

QUOTE

"Ethical behavior tends to be GOOD for business and involves demonstrating key moral principles that include honesty, fairness, equality, dignity, diversity, and individual rights "

 

Just because they (cruise lines) all do it does not make right.

 

Does HAL or other cruise lines meet this definition of Ethics ??

 

So, reading through the posts, you seem to be losing the "ethics" battle. I'm curious, if you booked a cruise a year out, taking a very desirable cabin out of inventory for the year, then on the day before final payment was due, you simply decided you were no longer interested and cancelled, HAL would refund 100% of your deposit. Maybe I wanted that cabin, but you had it and it wasn't available until the very end. Would you consider yourself "unethical?" Of course not. You see, as others have pointed out, you aren't at all interested in "ethics," you are interested in getting a "good deal" for yourself. Sure, you might say "they owe it to everybody," but if you got it, and no one else, would you complain? Would you find it "unethical" to be treated differently than all others? Of course not. You'd be "high fiving" yourself for getting a better deal than anyone else.

Reading your definition of "ethical principles," exactly where did HAL go wrong? Were you unaware that price drops AFTER final payment would not be honored? No one else here has a question about that. Did they trick you or fool you? Were you unaware of pricing rules? No. Because they are clearly printed and explained, and most everyone is fully aware of them. So, HAL is certainly acting in an "ethical" manner. You aren't. You are asking for special treatment and whining because you didn't get the best deal. If prices had gone up the day after you booked, you'd be doing the "happy dance" and bragging about the "great deal" you got. Pretty "ethical."

[navybankerteacher]

QUOTE

"Ethical behavior tends to be GOOD for business and involves demonstrating key moral principles that include honesty, fairness, equality, dignity, diversity, and individual rights "

 

Just because they (cruise lines) all do it does not make right.

 

Does HAL or other cruise lines meet this definition of Ethics ??

 

You should try to think objectively - and to understand the meanings of the words you toss around. Ethical behavior involve adhering to the accepted practice in a particular context. Morality is utterly different. Individual rights has nothing to do with your situation - beyond your right to expect the company to conduct themselves in accordance with the above-mentioned accepted practice.

 

By referring to unrelated values ( such as morals, dignity, human rights, etc.) you are simply confusing yourself - and not convincing anyone who has real understanding of the situation.

 

I am sorry you are not getting your way - but sometimes you have to live with disappointment --- it is part of being a grown up.

[3rdGenCunarder]

You should try to think objectively - and to understand the meanings of the words you toss around. Ethical behavior involve adhering to the accepted practice in a particular context. Morality is utterly different. Individual rights has nothing to do with your situation - beyond your right to expect the company to conduct themselves in accordance with the above-mentioned accepted practice.

 

By referring to unrelated values ( such as morals, dignity, human rights, etc.) you are simply confusing yourself - and not convincing anyone who has real understanding of the situation.

 

I am sorry you are not getting your way - but sometimes you have to live with disappointment --- it is part of being a grown up.

 

(bold is mine) Exactly!

 

Or as Mick says, "You can't always get what you want."

Edited June 1, 2016 by 3rdGenCunarder

[avian777]

QUOTE

"Ethical behavior ... involves demonstrating key moral principles that include honesty, fairness, equality, dignity, diversity, and individual rights "

 

Just curious - what/who is the source of the material you quoted above?

[Fouremco]

Just curious - what/who is the source of the material you quoted above?

As I suspect that the OP might not return at this point and answer your question, here's his probable source:

 

http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/ethical-behavior.html

[EDLOS]

Just curious - what/who is the source of the material you quoted above?

 

Business Dictionary's definition on the internet.

It is my understanding most highly rated Universities are now making "Business Ethics " a required course.

I think this would make an excellent Case Study for them.

I believe the Cruise Industry will head the same way of Airlines. There will be additional charges for Boarding first, extra changes for more than one bag, fees for tendering ashore, extra towel and linen charges. The possibilities are endless. Remember when WATER was free !!

[thinfool]

Water is still free.

[kevingastreich]

Water is still free.

 

Although free coffee is getting harder to find all the time. :p

[jmps]

I have a simple rule. "Never look at the pricing after final payment."

 

As a result I have never been disappointed!

 

John

 

Very good advice and practice!