Remember tragic accident with toddler? New revelations...

[cruisinmeme]

21 hours ago, ladybugpug said:

If my parent held my child out of a window over an 11 story drop I would remove my child from them and most likely never speak to them again. If my child fell??? I would want them to spend the rest of their years in prison and then an eternity in Hell. There would be no forgiveness. I cannot fathom the negligence and stupidity of holding a child out a window. It is mind numbing. 

 

I can say with a fair amount of certainty if i had dropped my grandchild under these circumstances my daughter would feel as you do (and rightfully so)  i keep hearing accident.  Yeah, stand in the middle of a busy highway and a car hits you. How can you call being stupid an accident.

[Two Wheels Only]

44 minutes ago, April42749 said:

Summary...I don't see a crime or mental illness.

 

The act of intentionally putting the child outside of a window over 100ft above the ground is a crime.

 

Extending the child past the railing and past the window sill would be a crime even if Anello safely brought the child back inside and they continued the cruise. The negligence led to a death, thus a charge of negligent homicide. 

Edited January 20, 2020 by Two Wheels Only

[April42749]

29 minutes ago, Two Wheels Only said:

 

The act of intentionally putting the child outside of a window over 100ft above the ground is a crime.

 

Extending the child past the railing and past the window sill would be a crime even if Anello safely brought the child back inside and they continued the cruise. The negligence led to a death, thus a charge of negligent homicide. 

Is every time an adult tosses a kid in the air and catches the kid a crime?  I'm not a lawyer but I don't think so...or the jails would be full.  But, when the adult fails to catch the child and the result is brain injury, then is tossing the child in the air a crime?  Or, when you put out a hot drink and the child climbs on the table to get it...and ends up burning herself?

 

Again...I'm not a lawyer and I don't what legally constitutes putting a child in danger.  I don't think there are hard fast rules...like don't hold a child out the window.  I believe it's using "reasonable thought".  Everyone here says "grandpa put the child in danger" and I agree...but, only the District Attorney can decide if he thinks a crime was committed.

[buckeyefrank]

8 minutes ago, April42749 said:

Is every time an adult tosses a kid in the air and catches the kid a crime?  I'm not a lawyer but I don't think so...or the jails would be full.  But, when the adult fails to catch the child and the result is brain injury, then is tossing the child in the air a crime?  Or, when you put out a hot drink and the child climbs on the table to get it...and ends up burning herself?

 

Again...I'm not a lawyer and I don't what legally constitutes putting a child in danger.  I don't think there are hard fast rules...like don't hold a child out the window.  I believe it's using "reasonable thought".  Everyone here says "grandpa put the child in danger" and I agree...but, only the District Attorney can decide if he thinks a crime was committed.

Oh come on....  There is no question that dangling a baby out a window 150 feet above pavement is criminally negligent behavior.  Comparing the tossing of a baby in the air to dangling the baby out a high window???  That's ridiculous.

[April42749]

8 minutes ago, buckeyefrank said:

Oh come on....  There is no question that dangling a baby out a window 150 feet above pavement is criminally negligent behavior.  Comparing the tossing of a baby in the air to dangling the baby out a high window???  That's ridiculous.

Not ridiculous to the kid's mother when the kid has irreversible brain damage.

Do you think this was the only time when someone held a child out a window or over the rail on a balcony?

Anyway...are you a lawyer?  If not...what you consider "criminally negligent" is only your opinion of what it is...not what the court says it is. 

[Two Wheels Only]

38 minutes ago, April42749 said:

...but, only the District Attorney can decide if he thinks a crime was committed.

 

...which is why Anello was charged with a crime. 

 

16 minutes ago, April42749 said:

Anyway...are you a lawyer?  If not...what you consider "criminally negligent" is only your opinion of what it is...not what the court says it is. 

 

You (not an attorney) doesn't believe that a crime was committed. 

 

However...

 

Attorney General Dennise N. Longo Quiñones, the Chief of Prosecutors, Arlene Gardón Rivera, together with the prosecutor's office of the district attorney of San Juan Víctor Carbonell, reported that charges were filed against Salvatore Anello for Negligent Homicide, per Article 96 of the Criminal Code.

 

In events that occurred on July 7, 2019, on the Freedom of the Seas cruise ship, on the Panamerican Pier II in San Juan, a child aged 1 year and 7 months lost her life when the step grandfather (husband of the maternal grandmother) negligently exposed her through one of the windows on the 11th floor of the ship. The minor fell from a height of 115 feet, which caused death instantly.

 

Today, Judge Jimmy Sepulveda of the San Juan Hall of Investigations, found cause for arrest against the accused, and imposed a bail of $ 80,000. The preliminary hearing was set for November 20, 2019. The investigation was carried out by agent Carlos Claudio La Santa of the Division of the Criminal Investigation of Homicides of San Juan in coordination with prosecutors Ivette Nieves Cordero and Laura Hernández Gutiérrez.

 

...those with more knowledge of the law believe that a crime WAS committed. 

Edited January 20, 2020 by Two Wheels Only

[Newleno]

13 minutes ago, April42749 said:

Not ridiculous to the kid's mother when the kid has irreversible brain damage.

Do you think this was the only time when someone held a child out a window or over the rail on a balcony?

Anyway...are you a lawyer?  If not...what you consider "criminally negligent" is only your opinion of what it is...not what the court says it is. 

you do know that there are criminal charges of negligent homicide filed against grandpa right?

[mugtech]

1 hour ago, April42749 said:

 

 

Again...I'm not a lawyer and I don't what legally constitutes putting a child in danger.  

Well demonstrated.  Surprised you did not reference Michael Jackson, who dangled a child from an upstairs balcony, was not arrested.

[April42749]

6 minutes ago, mugtech said:

Well demonstrated.  Surprised you did not reference Michael Jackson, who dangled a child from an upstairs balcony, was not arrested.

Oh...well maybe Grandpa was just following his example.  I don't recall anyone arresting Jackson.....

 

I know charges were filed.  I think Grandpa was an idiot.  I just think there are a lot of idiots...just as stupid as Grandpa.  But this Grandpa had the misfortune of being caught.  Go to a playground and observe all the "accidents waiting to happen".

 

I think the family should have shut up and not (most likely) influenced Grandpa to change his story.

 

Even if he goes to jail or gets the death sentence....lots of people are still going to do stupid things with their children and lots of children will die as a result.

 

https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/nyc-dad-who-left-twins-in-hot-car-criminal-case/1999292/

[NLH Arizona]

7 minutes ago, April42749 said:

Oh...well maybe Grandpa was just following his example.  I don't recall anyone arresting Jackson.....

 

Probably because he didn't drop the baby, like the grandfather did.

[Two Wheels Only]

12 minutes ago, April42749 said:

But this Grandpa had the misfortune of being caught.  Go to a playground and observe all the "accidents waiting to happen".

 

Do you believe that since "others" aren't charged when the child doesn't die, Anello shouldn't be charged when the child did die?

[pcakes122]

56 minutes ago, April42749 said:

I know charges were filed.  I think Grandpa was an idiot.  I just think there are a lot of idiots...just as stupid as Grandpa.  But this Grandpa had the misfortune of being caught.  Go to a playground and observe all the "accidents waiting to happen".

The point that you are very clearly missing is that the child was a VICTIM in this case.  Meaning SHE is the one who LOST HER LIFE and the person who TOOK her life can't just be excused because he is one of a million "idiots."  The parents, while devastated, are not the victims here.  You can't just get away with ending someone's life because you are "stupid."  I'm not saying this grandpa needs jail time, but I AM saying he needs to accept FULL accountability and stop trying to shift the blame to the blameless (i.e., Royal Caribbean.)  I understand he can't deal with it, but I'm sorry about that.  It doesn't change the circumstances.

 

Edited January 20, 2020 by pcakes122

[sanger727]

3 hours ago, April42749 said:

Is every time an adult tosses a kid in the air and catches the kid a crime?  I'm not a lawyer but I don't think so...or the jails would be full.  But, when the adult fails to catch the child and the result is brain injury, then is tossing the child in the air a crime?  Or, when you put out a hot drink and the child climbs on the table to get it...and ends up burning herself?

 

Again...I'm not a lawyer and I don't what legally constitutes putting a child in danger.  I don't think there are hard fast rules...like don't hold a child out the window.  I believe it's using "reasonable thought".  Everyone here says "grandpa put the child in danger" and I agree...but, only the District Attorney can decide if he thinks a crime was committed.

you are right in the fact that there’s no hard and fast rule on what is putting a child in danger and what isn’t. However; I think you are trying to demonstrate that using two opposite examples that are easily identifiable. Playing with a child on a playground - not child endangering. Dangling a child out of a window 150 ft in the air - child endangering. There are some much more amibiguous examples that I’ve seen where it is harder to say. Typically those are based on freedom given to children based on age (so like a 7 year old left home alone). The fact that a child is injured by itself isn’t the determining factor; but if the 7 year old sets the house on fire and dies because they were alone, it’s certainly a contributing factor. But I think that most reasonable adults can agree that dangling a child out of a window 150 ft above the ground isn’t reasonable. I personally wouldn’t even hold my phone over an edge like that out of fear of it slipping and breaking.

[atanac]

Reading through this entire post the general consensus is the Grandpa was negligent and the fault

lies squarely with him. If this actually winds up in court with a seated jury the defense would be wise

to read every ones comments here on Cruise Critic for a preview as to what the outcome from a jury

might be.

Anyone else see it that way?

[mitsugirly]

On 1/19/2020 at 1:22 PM, Two Wheels Only said:

 

 

No. He looked winded before he even walked to the window. When he stops and squats against the pole, he looks like someone who is resting after following a young child all day. After he lifts the child over the railing, he is seen switching from one arm to the next as he holds her. His arm probably got tired and he switched. Right before she fell, the child is sitting on the window sill but before that, she is being held in the air far beyond the railing and the window sill. 

 

 

 

 

I noticed he was switching arms as well (holding her with one arm) and then I just seen the interview he did with CBS and even then he seems to change the story somewhat.

 

 

He said she was down at the bottom glass (to bang on the window like she does at the hockey games) so he bent down to do it and HE couldn't reach except for his fingertips....so he knew SHE couldn't reach either (which makes no sense because she would have been right at the bottom window underneath the handrail because there's no danger there and definitely been able to reach the glass). So that's when he decided he'd pick her up (video shows him being down there for about 4 seconds, which to me was long enough for him to bring her back away from the glass she was at and then under the handrail and lift her up).

 

Next when he was asked to show how he was holding her (interviewer asked if it was in a "bear hug" and moved his arms to represent that), then Anello agreed and did the same and states "from what I remember". 

 

He then said he was trying to knock on the glass himself (of course that meant you wouldn't have her in a bear hug with 2 arms holding on to her otherwise, how would you knock?) and said at that point he "was going to have to lean forward for her to reach it" then admits he only had 1 arm around her at that point.

 

He did say initially he blamed himself  but now "the more and more days go by" that he blames the cruise line.

 

Just watching the interview, I think he is cautious of what he is saying (of course probably advised by his counsel) and seems somewhat confused, maybe even easily influenced (by the interviewer asking a question and then suggesting the answer). I don't know. It's such a sad situation for everyone. I just think this story has changed so many times and the grandfather is so distraught and confused, maybe even blocking the tragic memory in his mind, that he just can't keep the story straight now. 😞

 

[mitsugirly]

3 hours ago, sanger727 said:

I personally wouldn’t even hold my phone over an edge like that out of fear of it slipping and breaking.

 

It's funny you mentioned this because I have been thinking the exact same thing. I carry my camera everywhere I go when cruising and take thousands of pictures for my reviews. I always try to put my hand out around a glass, over a glass, or through a window to get the best unobstructed picture and the VERY first thing I do is to put the strap around my wrist and tighten the drawstring before doing it because I'm so afraid that I could accidentally drop it and all of my memories. (Of course this doesn't compare to poor Chloe's life that was lost). Just saying...anything can happen in an instant. 

[graphicguy]

It’s not a crime to do stupid things, unless those stupid things result in a crime (as it did here).

 

Separate subject @mitsugirly (Kim)...how’s your recovery coming along?

[RedwingHockeyFan]

23 hours ago, mjkacmom said:

I don’t think he lied, I think he believed everything he said. I think he was told what happened.

 

I've read this whole topic and I can see where you are coming from but I think you are looking at it too much from the families side and not looking at the big picture.  I don't think anyone here believes that the grandfather did this on purpose but what he did was negligent and stupid.  The lawsuit is just a smoke screen I believe.  It is intended to take the focus off the grandfather being responsible and possibly getting charged with a crime.  Bottom line, he put her in a position to fall not the cruise line.

[FitchburgWIFamily]

I agree with a lot of what has been said here.   I only post because I think there is a little more certainty among others that the grandfather is "lying" and "changing his story" for reasons of greed.   If you know anyone who has been through a really tragic event (and we can all agree this qualifies) ask them what they remember and how those memories are processed.  There experience may be similar to mine.

 

I was in a terrible car accident once.  I was questioned by the police.  Some of the questions they asked were about braking before the accident, were the brakes applied, did the brakes sequel, stuff like that.   I answered that I was sure the brakes were applied but they did not sequel...because I had no memory of that sound at that time.   About 3 months later, I was sitting in a restaurant, and a car outside jammed on its brakes, and as soon as I hear that squeal I had a flash back to my own accident and I all of a sudden could vividly recall the sound of the brakes squealing and even the smell of them.   In the years following that accident, more and more little memories surfaced.   Memories of things that if you asked me if they had occurred at the time I would have denied.

 

So, anecdotally,  I can see how someone's story would change and how someone would be open to the power of suggestion after a traumatic and tragic event.   I believe he may not remember what really happened and his brain is protecting him right now.   In the interim, he may be making himself believe a story that allows him to continue to function.

[MotownVoice]

I don't think a person on the planet could watch that video of Michael Jackson throwing a veil over Prince Michael II's head and flinging the infant out over the railing of a high rise hotel would have thought anything in that moment except:  PRISON.

[Two Wheels Only]

24 minutes ago, FitchburgWIFamily said:

So, anecdotally,  I can see how someone's story would change and how someone would be open to the power of suggestion after a traumatic and tragic event.   I believe he may not remember what really happened and his brain is protecting him right now. 

 

In your case, your memory got more accurate over time. In Anello's case, his memory was accurate initially (police report) and became less accurate over time (after family hired the attorney). In addition, the attorney has seen the undoctored surveillance video but continues to push a false narrative.

[reeinaz]

2 hours ago, MotownVoice said:

I don't think a person on the planet could watch that video of Michael Jackson throwing a veil over Prince Michael II's head and flinging the infant out over the railing of a high rise hotel would have thought anything in that moment except:  PRISON.

At the time, people did call for his arrest. It happened in Berlin and the Berlin prosecutors chose not to pursue it because a formal complaint wasn't filed. Maybe if injury had occurred, that choice to not pursue prosecution would have been removed. But if that happened in the US, today, I'm sure an arrest would have occurred. Or at the very least an investigation by child welfare.

[CruisingSince1982]

That video changes everything.

[jaja]

27 minutes ago, CruisingSince1982 said:

That video changes everything.

Absolutely ! 

[mitsugirly]

10 hours ago, graphicguy said:

 

 

Separate subject @mitsugirly (Kim)...how’s your recovery coming along?

 

Improving little by little. I'm just grateful to be on my feet again and out of the wheelchair. Thanks for asking. :)