AGEISM, THE NEW NORM IN CRUISING?

[Spif Barwunkel]

The word, AGEISM , was coined in 1969. It's not a nice word, denoting discrimination against persons of a certain age group. A tendency to regard older persons as debilitated, unworthy of attention, or unsuitable for employment. As a young twenty-something at that time, I don't remember hearing of it's introduction to the English language. As my chronological maturity continued, I can honestly say that I never personally experienced ageism. However, we all know how deeply rooted in our society this ill-fitting word has become over the years.

 

Now, as a seventy-something, it seems quite possible that my cruising days, whenever they resume, are no longer. Through no fault of my own and at the behest of others, the Grim Reaper will appear and end my cruising life. Just like that. Strictly because of my chronological maturity. Welcome to a number and the unfortunate opportunity to be labeled "debilitated", whether  or not it fits.

 

Under the current conditions, does it fit? Is it the right thing to do, that cruise lines no longer want to play with persons of a certain age? Perhaps 70 will eventually become 60, then 50.

 

AGEISM, will this be the new norm in cruising?  

Edited April 11, 2020 by Spif Barwunkel
grammar

[effinaround]

No, this is likely not going to be the new norm.  People are confusing emergency measures right now with permanent restrictions.   

 

Once  a vaccine has been made, distributed and the population immune to the current threat, there really will be no reason to impose ablanket age related moratorium.

 

Spif, as long as you stay healthy, there will be no reason to think your cruising days are over. 

[Banjo]

I don't think so. The elderly, by far, makes up the largest demographic on a cruise ship. If anything the cruise ship companies were trying to be more accommodating, example-dialysis units on ships.  

 

My father worked for an airline that had world wide reach and we traveled as a family any chance we could back in youth (early 60s) to the Middle East, North Africa, Latin America, etc.. I recall having this official gray booklet (similar to a passport) having your complete vaccination history. Also when the plane arrived back in the States a public health inspector would give a look see prior to anyone departing the plane. I could see that maybe coming back.

 

I believe things will get back to normal but we may have to wait for a viable treatment regimen & a vaccine.

[upwarduk]

Quote

 

as long

 as you stay healthy, there will be no reason to think your cruising days are over.

 

Not for this year sadly. Gov. UK advise against cruising and Celebrity require  a Drs note before embarkation is allowed.

 

Edited April 11, 2020 by upwarduk

[hcat]

It's been the norm for  quite awhile!

 

Older cruisers were  the "reason"  for dress codes and formal nights. So those were changed to attract a younger demographic.

 

Older cruisers were the "reason" for set dinner hours, so now we have  Select..to attract the younger demographic.

 

X was advertising EDEN and other alleged "cutting edge " changes in entertainment ( many have flopped) and  music hoping  to attract younger, cruisers .

 

Most of the  now older clientele stuck with the cruise line, embraced  many of the  new ideas and changes.. ever loyal.

 

I have observed there have been  more than a few posts on CC over recent yrs by newer cruisers that are offensive  to srs..blatantly aegist.. some  quite arrogant  , selfish & thoughtless IMHO.

 

Now the health situation may change  the whole dynamic...time will tell.

 

 

 

[zanderblue]

Upwarduk, I feel your pain. 

However, these are temporary, emergency measures put in place in the interim. They will be eased and then finally lifted as soon as the medical folks are comfortable that they will be able to cope.

lets all hunker down and stay healthy until then.

[greydog]

Hi - so far it seems these cruise restrictions, even if temporary, are impacting ocean cruises.

 

After MANY ocean trips, we have lately been trying European river cruises and having great small ship experiences, historically-oriented itineraries. No casinos, no theater productions, few children, etc.

 

Will wait and see if these restrictions also change the character of these alternatives. 

 

Best wishes for all.

[Denny01]

 

 

DI’ll disagree with the dress code and formal nights being for us ‘seniors’. Those were modified/dropped because We (mainly us men) refused to wear ties and jackets with the too-tired excuses of “I had to wear a coat and tie at work...” which meant “I’ll wear a coat/tie for money, but not my wife”. So the changes were due to us Baby Boomers who are now the older crowd. So, yes, cruise ships are advertising to the younger crowd, mainly because we are slowly dying away or will start spending our ‘time’ sitting on the porch yelling at the teens to stay off our grass. 

 

None of that is ‘ageism’, it’s called business. 

 

Den

 

 

 

[Georgia_Peaches]

I don't think this will be the new normal.  The cruise industry is heavily reliant upon senior cruising...they make up the lion's share of cruising, especially in off peak seasons when kiddos and their families are tied to the school calendar.  I think that in time, we will see a drop off of those restrictions and you will be well on your way to cruising again!

[NMTraveller]

Nope.

 

The reason the restrictions are in place is COVID.

 

The cruise lines will take your money no matter of your age once this is over.

Edited April 11, 2020 by NMTraveller

[phoenix_dream]

There is a big difference between 'ageism' and risk analysis.  The facts are that, at least for now, those 70 and over (and many sources say 60 or 65 and older) are considered at higher risk for serious illness and even death if contacting Covid-19.   That being the case, how could we not expect the cruise lines to want to absolve themselves of the liability of traveling with passengers of that age.  And I say this as a not-quite-but-almost-70 senior myself.  They are being killed financially with this entire situation to begin with.  They have to somehow look to managing their future losses.  It sucks, but there it is.  It is really no different than automobile insurance which charges more for those under 25 years old.  They do so because the risk is so much higher for that age group.  Whether it will continue when sailings start again, who knows.  I suspect it will at least until a vaccine is developed.  Who knows - at some point they may require everyone to provide either proof of a vaccination or proof of antibodies.  

[meechee111]

1 hour ago, phoenix_dream said:

There is a big difference between 'ageism' and risk analysis.  The facts are that, at least for now, those 70 and over (and many sources say 60 or 65 and older) are considered at higher risk for serious illness and even death if contacting Covid-19.   That being the case, how could we not expect the cruise lines to want to absolve themselves of the liability of traveling with passengers of that age.  And I say this as a not-quite-but-almost-70 senior myself.  They are being killed financially with this entire situation to begin with.  They have to somehow look to managing their future losses.  It sucks, but there it is.  It is really no different than automobile insurance which charges more for those under 25 years old.  They do so because the risk is so much higher for that age group.  Whether it will continue when sailings start again, who knows.  I suspect it will at least until a vaccine is developed.  Who knows - at some point they may require everyone to provide either proof of a vaccination or proof of antibodies.  

I agree.  The CDC has put major restrictions on cruise lines who want to dock at US ports.  They are saying that cruise lines need better medical facilities on ships that are designed to do more than just stabilize patients.  Ships should have proper quarantine zones for sick patients, along with stronger policies for keeping ships clean and sanitized.  I think there will be many changes to cruising based on this event.  I don't think things will be going "back to normal" in the same way airlines changed after 9/11.  In some ways, I think some restrictions are necessary.  There were passengers from the Princess cruises who sued the line after being quarantined on the ships.  Cruise lines can't afford such negative press.  It will take Princess/Carnival to overcome all this bad press from this virus.  To be honest, I think it can be dangerous to have elderly people leaving multiple walkers and scooters at the entrance to dining venues or in the hallways to charge up.  I've always wondered how the crew could evacuate people with mobility issues safely.  I think if you are fit to travel, you should be allowed to do so, but I do think there were people cruising who honestly shouldn't have been allowed to do so.  All in all, cruise lines will attempt to protect themselves from future losses and lawsuits.  I do think when this is all said and done, a segment of people will be forced to look elsewhere for a vacation.

[paulh84]

Cruise lines are going to take a huge hit on this. The older passenger base and the new-to-cruising populations will both be much more leery to book.

 

That leaves an awkward gap of customers in the middle like ourselves. 30's to 40's, DINK's, don't need or want a Six Flags on the water that stops at a Six Flags on a private island (I'm talking about you RCL). As much as people here get worked up over the 'Celebrity's demographics', this is a perfect storm of having your core customer base being one mishap away from never cruising again.

 

But risk evaluation determined by hard data is not ageism. I've seen the comment here multiple times where someone says they would likely continue to cruise but probably couldn't get a doctor to okay it. That's concerning, especially in such a litigous society that needs to immediately place blame over personal responsibility. It's a no-win situation for the customer and the company. 

[ECCruise]

This is so plain it is obvious.

No senior cruisers.  No cruise lines.  It is that simple.

[meechee111]

23 minutes ago, ECCruise said:

This is so plain it is obvious.

No senior cruisers.  No cruise lines.  It is that simple.

No necessarily.  Royal Caribbean, Carnival, Disney and NCL do a great job selling cruises to families and younger cruisers.  The new Scarlet Lady from Virgin Cruises is very clear about wanting only younger cruisers.  I think if cruise lines can woo back customers, they will make it just fine selling vacations to those under 70.

[ECCruise]

26 minutes ago, meechee111 said:

No necessarily.  Royal Caribbean, Carnival, Disney and NCL do a great job selling cruises to families and younger cruisers.  The new Scarlet Lady from Virgin Cruises is very clear about wanting only younger cruisers.  I think if cruise lines can woo back customers, they will make it just fine selling vacations to those under 70.

Yes. In a percentage of their cruises. But if you eliminate 25% of your market (and I think that number is low) the metrics don't work. 

Or you don't cruise to Europe except for short sailings in limited months. No Asia. No Africa. Empty crossings. 

How very boring.  Year round Caribbean. No thanks. 

[LMaxwell]

It seems cruise lines are willing to offer more options to those over 70 than those under 70. Is that not a form of ageism also by the OP standards ?

[markeb]

Given that the cruise lines have willingly for years discriminated against those old enough to  take an oath to "support and defend", serve in uniform, die in uniform, but can't buy a beer in international waters or even have a cabin of their own unless married (and provide proof of marriage) There's nothing new about "ageism" on the part of Celebrity, or the other cruise lines.. 

 

What did change is that statistically those over 65 or so are much more likely to die of COVID19 and the industry as a whole (not just RCCL or Celebrity) through CLIA gambled they could keep cruising by implementing the over 70 requirement. I honestly don't know that anyone ever had to provide certification as cruising shut down almost immediately after the requirement was put in place. The data so far would suggest that pretty much anyone could require significant intensive care on a cruise, so we'll see where we are when cruising resumes. They know your age; they don't know your A1C or if you've been on chemo...

[Wine-O]

I guess you don't ever make final payment if you are over 70 until you get a note from your doctor that you are OK?  🍷

[DaveSJ711]

1 hour ago, ECCruise said:

Or you don't cruise to Europe except for short sailings in limited months. No Asia. No Africa. Empty crossings. 

How very boring.  Year round Caribbean. No thanks. 

 

How very jaded.

[ECCruise]

10 minutes ago, DaveSJ711 said:

 

How very jaded.

Cause I don't have any desire to sail the Caribbean?  Huh?

[GottaKnowWhen]

What irks me is that the 70+ red flag is totally bogus. UNLESS the CLIA is also going to require similar screening for all high risk groups. Complete medical histories. A medical check up as part of the boarding process. So, yes, it is pure mindless ageism instituted for the sake of trying to cover up the blunders of Carnival. 
Stan

[markeb]

4 minutes ago, GottaKnowWhen said:

What irks me is that the 70+ red flag is totally bogus. UNLESS the CLIA is also going to require similar screening for all high risk groups. Complete medical histories. A medical check up as part of the boarding process. So, yes, it is pure mindless ageism instituted for the sake of trying to cover up the blunders of Carnival. 
Stan

 

No. It's the risk category that's obvious. They know your age. Denying that is just futile. It's definitely not bogus.

 

Should they require you to self identify other risks? Sure. They'd have to deny you coverage (trip insurance) if you didn't self identify. But they know your age, and it's a risk.

[GottaKnowWhen]

Look at the proportions of African Americans getting killed by covid-19. For whatever reasons, they have shown to be a high risk population. Thankfully they will not be targeted by CLIA and cruise line restrictions, and neither should us older people. Base decisions on evidence, not on assumptions based on categorizations like age. Require a health certificate from all passengers of all ages. Or let us self screen as we have done for noro etc.

[omeinv]

The fact is it's hardly "ageism".  That would imply discrimination without rational basis.  The decision is based on the fact that those over 70 AND those with pre-existing conditions are disproportionately represented in cases where COVD-19 leads to severe complications and hospitalization.  These groups are exactly whom Celebrity delineates in their policy:

 

 

• Boarding will be denied to any person age 70 or older, unless the guest provides written verification from a qualified treating physician that certifies the person has no severe, chronic medical condition and is fit to travel.
• Boarding will be denied to any person with a severe, chronic medical condition, including those specified by the CDC. Guests of all ages will be screened prior to boarding, regarding underlying health issues that may prevent them from sailing.

Many here on Cruise Critic seem to  presume that getting a doctor's certificate they are fit to travel would be difficult.  However - presuming one has no such conditions - a doctor would likely sign such a document.  As a scuba instructor, I deal with medical releases routinely.  People disclose their medical history, including specific conditions of concern, Their doctor reviews it in light of the activity, and 95 times out of a hundred, they sign off the person may dive.  The remaining times?  If the person feels their doctor didn't clear them when they should, they see a specialist, who reviews it.  A doctor reviewing an activity, in light of an individual patient's history, and opining they can safely participate is literally an everyday occurrence.  It's hardly an insurmountable burden, and the presentation of this requirement as something unduly onerous, or discriminatory is hardly warranted.

 

Harris

Denver, CO