CDC: Cruise ship travel “exacerbates the global spread of Covid-19.”

[JAMESCC]

 
Cruise ships are incubators as their configuration leads to viral spread among passengers and crew.  Norwalk proved that long before COVID-19.  The odds of catching the virus from another passenger on a flight are comparatively low because you are on it for hours instead of days and there is less repeated contact among air passengers. 
 
You might have one or two infected passengers on an aircraft.  When the cruise ship pulls in you might have a boatload. 
   

I will concede that 5-6 thousand people on a ship is not a great idea with infected people on it. That would be dangerous. I just think planes are very dangerous too and they seem to be getting a pass.
Ah the whole world is a mess right now. Nothing is good about this pandemic. There really seems to be no light at the end of the tunnel. I mean a vaccine would be nice but there are still questions after that. Who will get it, and I don't mean who will be selected but who will get it. I mean I know I will but how many will refuse. Is herd immunity a real thing? What a mess we are all in. [emoji24]

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[evandbob]

1 hour ago, LHT28 said:

No risk going to a crowded  beach  then?

 or parties  with hundreds  mingling

 Guess all those new cases in Florida  must have come from cruise  ships back in Feb/March

Interesting  how that would work 🙄

 

From what this Florida resident has seen, our uptick in cases started when the Gov decided to reopen the economy, restaurants, beaches, hair salons, etc. around Memorial Day.  Two weeks later, cases increased from 1,000 per day in the entire state to over 10,000.  People stopped wearing masks and forgot about social distancing.  This occurred with both college aged and retirement aged people.  We are still averaging over 10,000 cases/day, and the Gov issued a statement that Florida has the virus under control as we passed the 400,000 mark.

 

Local Town Boards held meetings and hearings on toning back the "reopening" and many of these devolved into shouting matches about constitution rights.  The Gov said the ten fold increase in cases doesn't mean much as the death rate seemed stable.  Right after that, the death rate started setting records in the state as it lags the on set of cases.  So the Gov states Florida is doing a great job of testing, and ignores the death rate which now includes youngsters under 10 and teenagers.  Now the Gov is pushing for schools to re-open, here in Florida thats around Aug 10.  Many are predicting another surge in first elderly cases and later deaths as asymptomatic kids bring the virus home to their parents, guardians and grandparents.

 

We were doing so well back in March and now we are the one of the hotspots of the nation.  The figures changed as attitudes and behaviors got lax or ignored with the Gov's push for re-opening.  Pretty much the same situation I'll guess in Tx and Az as here in FL.

 

Many of us were skeptical about re-opening too soon, and wished against the feared exponential increases that the re-opening resulted in.  Seems our fears were fact based.

Edited July 24, 2020 by evandbob

[chipmaster]

3 hours ago, JAMESCC said:

I will concede that 5-6 thousand people on a ship is not a great idea with infected people on it. That would be dangerous. I just think planes are very dangerous too and they seem to be getting a pass.
Ah the whole world is a mess right now. Nothing is good about this pandemic. There really seems to be no light at the end of the tunnel. I mean a vaccine would be nice but there are still questions after that. Who will get it, and I don't mean who will be selected but who will get it. I mean I know I will but how many will refuse. Is herd immunity a real thing? What a mess we are all in.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
 

 

This changing the subject is similar tactic anti mask fans use.

 

Cruising is dangerous and should stop: done

Flying internationally is dangerous and should stop: done

Domestic flying like other transportation is grey area of essential service like subway/bus:  with mask and 1/2 capacity is reasonable IMHO

Social distance and gatherings indoors is dangerous and should stop:  YMMV no federal rule

Masks are a good idea: YMMV no federal rool.

Gatherings protesting:  pretty much allowed, no politicized as lawless mobs... pretty much both sides at fault.

 

Cruising shouldn't be allowed till the pandemic is fully contained, as should sports, non-essential stuff, but YMMV seems to be the rule of thumb

[LHT28]

1 minute ago, chipmaster said:

Cruising is dangerous and should stop: done

Flying internationally is dangerous and should stop: done

Domestic flying like other transportation is grey area of essential service like subway/bus:  with mask and 1/2 capacity is reasonable IMHO

 

people should have to stay inside 

they could have military who are tested  daily for the virus  deliver meals  that are prepared by people testing negative

eventually the virus would be under control

 

STAY HOME

 

[nosapphire]

4 hours ago, JAMESCC said:

I didn't twist a thing pal, sorry. I do not believe they are selling cruises that have no chance to sail and consumers have the ability to choose or not choose to book these cruises.
Please stop with the BS incubator BS, please just stop. Planes have the ability to fly millions of people per day that are asymptomatic and then those people go off into countries and could spread. There is absolutely no difference between planes and cruises.

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I do not believe they are selling cruises that have no chance to sail.

Oh yes, some of them certainly are.

Although it is quite true as you say, it is up to the consumer whether or not to book.

[clo]

3 hours ago, chipmaster said:

Cruising shouldn't be allowed till the pandemic is fully contained, as should sports, non-essential stuff, but YMMV seems to be the rule of thumb

I agree with everything you wrote. 

 

We're about 40 miles from California and there's town that has no indoor dining or bar. They've gotten very creative. The little town has allowed them to take parking places and create outdoor dining. I think those big brains at cruise lines ought to be able to be even more creative.

[navybankerteacher]

3 hours ago, nosapphire said:

I do not believe they are selling cruises that have no chance to sail.

Oh yes, some of them certainly are.

Although it is quite true as you say, it is up to the consumer whether or not to book.

It is interesting how blind the “gotta cruise now folks” are.  Of course, it is impossible to say for certain that cruises scheduled for November and later - which are now being sold - will not actually sail.  But how about all those cruises scheduled for July and August - which were actively sold during the March and April peaks of infection - and were, in fact, cancelled?  It is obvious that overly optimistic cruise line managers will sell anything the gullible public will buy.

 

Unless some radical improvement comes along - there will be NO cruises sailing from US ports in the rest of 2020.

[ontheweb]

4 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

It is interesting how blind the “gotta cruise now folks” are.  Of course, it is impossible to say for certain that cruises scheduled for November and later - which are now being sold - will not actually sail.  But how about all those cruises scheduled for July and August - which were actively sold during the March and April peaks of infection - and were, in fact, cancelled?  It is obvious that overly optimistic cruise line managers will sell anything the gullible public will buy.

 

Unless some radical improvement comes along - there will be NO cruises sailing from US ports in the rest of 2020.

Our July cruise was to start tomorrow. (With the time difference we would now be asleep in our hotel in London.) We only had a refundable deposit. I saw the writing on the wall and cancelled in early April. I could not understand why Princess did not cancel. Three weeks later our final payment would have been due, and another week after that Princess did cancel. I now suspect why they waited that long. And it was not  that they thought the cruise would be able to sail!

[clo]

35 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

It is interesting how blind the “gotta cruise now folks” are.  Of course, it is impossible to say for certain that cruises scheduled for November and later - which are now being sold - will not actually sail.  But how about all those cruises scheduled for July and August - which were actively sold during the March and April peaks of infection - and were, in fact, cancelled?  It is obvious that overly optimistic cruise line managers will sell anything the gullible public will buy.

 

Unless some radical improvement comes along - there will be NO cruises sailing from US ports in the rest of 2020.

And it's clear that the CDC doesn't think highly of this.

[navybankerteacher]

13 hours ago, ontheweb said:

Our July cruise was to start tomorrow. (With the time difference we would now be asleep in our hotel in London.) We only had a refundable deposit. I saw the writing on the wall and cancelled in early April. I could not understand why Princess did not cancel. Three weeks later our final payment would have been due, and another week after that Princess did cancel. I now suspect why they waited that long. And it was not  that they thought the cruise would be able to sail!

They are obviously in crisis management mode.  It is virtually impossible for them to raise any more money from investors - having all their hard assets mortgaged to the hilt, having watered their stock substantially with their new issue - overhung by their new convertible debt - while carrying the 12% interest burden on those recent debentures.

 

The only way the current investors (corporate management) can hope to keep their stake is by scrounging every cent that can - every way they can.  They will continue to offer attractive itineraries as long as there are hopeful optimists out there to provide cash down payments - which can be converted into FCC’s if the ships do not sail.  It isn’t fraud — as long as management thinks there is the slightest chance of sailings, but it does depend upon their being an ongoing supply of wishful wannabe cruisers.

[bigrednole]

After reading what they were asking for comments about, for anyone that can read between the lines, the CDC is leveraging Covid-19 to have them start paying more to be able to us US ports. They want them to fund land-based medical centers. Fund travel costs for medical evac to a quarantine shelter. Fund quarantine shelters for the entire ship. It was fairly clear that the CDC is going to ban cruising for at least 6 more months in the US and maybe even a year.

[JAMESCC]

After reading what they were asking for comments about, for anyone that can read between the lines, the CDC is leveraging Covid-19 to have them start paying more to be able to us US ports. They want them to fund land-based medical centers. Fund travel costs for medical evac to a quarantine shelter. Fund quarantine shelters for the entire ship. It was fairly clear that the CDC is going to ban cruising for at least 6 more months in the US and maybe even a year.

That would really not be good. Another year would be extremely painful.

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[bigrednole]

7. What pre-arrangements should be made to ensure that all U.S. seaport communities will accept a returning ship after a COVID-19 outbreak is identified?

 

8. What plans should cruise ship operators have for operationalizing shoreside quarantine facilities in the event of a COVID-19 outbreak on board a ship, without exposing the public and without relying on Federal, State, or local resources?

 

These two statements made it very clear. Basically it is telling that the cruise ship must have debarkation plans in place for everyone onboard to quarantine centers that they will be responsible for or agreement from passengers that they accept the cost. I can understand to an extent because most of their taxes are paid outside the US. However, the same hold true for anyone flying. Airlines should be required to face the same scrutiny because social distancing is not possible on a plane. They can only have 1 passenger ever 3rd or 4th row. If you give a person a pool noodle and they can touch someone with it, they are too close. 

[JAMESCC]

7. What pre-arrangements should be made to ensure that all U.S. seaport communities will accept a returning ship after a COVID-19 outbreak is identified?

 

8. What plans should cruise ship operators have for operationalizing shoreside quarantine facilities in the event of a COVID-19 outbreak on board a ship, without exposing the public and without relying on Federal, State, or local resources?

 

These two statements made it very clear. Basically it is telling that the cruise ship must have debarkation plans in place for everyone onboard to quarantine centers that they will be responsible for or agreement from passengers that they accept the cost. I can understand to an extent because most of their taxes are paid outside the US. However, the same hold true for anyone flying. Airlines should be required to face the same scrutiny because social distancing is not possible on a plane. They can only have 1 passenger ever 3rd or 4th row. If you give a person a pool noodle and they can touch someone with it, they are too close. 

How about this and this would be a bit painful for passengers but how about am extra fee on top of everyone's cruise fare? Something like 200 bucks per person that goes into a fund to cover this? Then again I have no idea what the cover charge would need to be. Wasn't there talk of portable temp hospital wards right at the ports of call? They were like pre manufactured hospital rooms that were gonna be placed right at the ports.

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[bigrednole]

If you read between the lines, the CDC is looking for commitment of $10,000s per passenger and crew member. The cost to quarantine 3,000 people and say 750 crew members for 14-days with medical treatment, care, monitoring, etc, you are looking at about $20,000 per person. Travel insurance would never agree to cover it. I don't see any cruise line covering it. You are looking at $600M for quarantine per cruise. Reading through the lines and understanding what the CDC has publicly stated by asking these questions is the cruise lines are going to have to cover these fees or the CDC never lets them port in the US. Plus, they will not allow travelers back to the US that went on a cruise from a port outside of the US without being quarantined first. Basically, they have found a way to finally tax the cruise industry.

[cruisemom42]

4 hours ago, bigrednole said:

After reading what they were asking for comments about, for anyone that can read between the lines

 

16 minutes ago, bigrednole said:

If you read between the lines, 

 

If only everyone was as perspicacious as you to be able to read between the lines so clearly. 

 

You do realize that most of this "hidden agenda" you seem to see is not within the CDC's power to effect, right?

 

I'm getting rather tired of cruisers trying to demonize the CDC when it is the cruise lines who are dragging their feet and refusing to get serious about the changes that are needed to keep passengers safe and healthy aboard their ships in the post-COVID environment.

 

[bigrednole]

I am not demonizing the CDC. They hold all of the power, period. And yes, if you read the "survey", it is clear what the agenda is...the government wants an entity that pays limited taxes in the US to front the bill for any pandemic related issues they may bring. What I disagree with is that the level of pressure is single sided. The same needs to be done for airlines, hotels, Disney/Universal, and all other places that are open to spreading this. I disagree with singling out 1 industry. But I do understand to an extent because they pay so little to operate in the US.

[luckyinpa]

i dont live in a big city . can someone comment on how NYC, LA etc are doing? are the subways empty or full. skyscrapers doing 4 people per elevator or filling them? i know in NJ the casinos allow 4 people per elevator and they are smaller than an office skyscraper. i just hope as much attention is being given to the ubiquity of general office life vs cruising. to be consistent things like disney and movies should never full open, if at all. ive seen vids on tv about the local shore communities, no distancing there.  

i was in an airport in march and june so know how they are doing. planes empty in march. packed in june. 

 

i just fail to see how much more dangerous cruising is than every other thing in the USA. sports is doing things with no audience. which  is consistent. 

[clo]

10 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

I'm getting rather tired of cruisers trying to demonize the CDC when it is the cruise lines who are dragging their feet and refusing to get serious about the changes that are needed to keep passengers safe and healthy aboard their ships in the post-COVID environment.

 

I'm with you on this for sure. I'd like to see just what the cruise lines have proposed to the CDC. Darn little and quite inadequate if I were to guess.

[clo]

2 hours ago, luckyinpa said:

sports

Yep and a dozen members of MLB team have it now.

[navybankerteacher]

2 hours ago, luckyinpa said:

i dont live in a big city . can someone comment on how NYC, LA etc are doing? are the subways empty or full. skyscrapers doing 4 people per elevator or filling them? i know in NJ the casinos allow 4 people per elevator and they are smaller than an office skyscraper. i just hope as much attention is being given to the ubiquity of general office life vs cruising. to be consistent things like disney and movies should never full open, if at all. ive seen vids on tv about the local shore communities, no distancing there.  

i was in an airport in march and june so know how they are doing. planes empty in march. packed in june. 

 

i just fail to see how much more dangerous cruising is than every other thing in the USA. sports is doing things with no audience. which  is consistent. 

Yes - and a number of baseball games have been postponed/cancelled.  And those packed planes in June are now giving us the infections, hospitalizations and deaths in July.

 

It is time for the American public to grow up, suck it up, and act responsibly.  The New Jersey lifeguards who contracted COVID at a party are typical of the asinine behavior which is prolonging this mess.

 

Cruising may be no more dangerous than some other things —but it does not take a rocket scientist to understand that purely non-essential recreation can be more easily deferred than worthwhile activity.

 

 

[CruiserBruce]

36 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

Yes - and a number of baseball games have been postponed/cancelled.  And those packed planes in June are now giving us the infections, hospitalizations and deaths in July.

 

It is time for the American public to grow up, suck it up, and act responsibly.  The New Jersey lifeguards who contracted COVID at a party are typical of the asinine behavior which is prolonging this mess.

 

Cruising may be no more dangerous than some other things —but it does not take a rocket scientist to understand that purely non-essential recreation can be more easily deferred than worthwhile activity.

 

 

Hmmm...not sure the flights are the problem. I think your comments regarding the lifeguards are closer to the reality.

 

Airplanes have some of the best air filtration out there, and travel is still down around 80%. Its not the young party crowd that is flying a lot...

[navybankerteacher]

7 minutes ago, CruiserBruce said:

Hmmm...not sure the flights are the problem. I think your comments regarding the lifeguards are closer to the reality.

 

Airplanes have some of the best air filtration out there, and travel is still down around 80%. Its not the young party crowd that is flying a lot...

While travel is down a whole lot, many flights are flying full - there are just many fewer flights.  3 or 4 hours sitting cheek-by-cheek - with your face maybe a foot away from folks on your right and left, and perhaps two feet from those front and back.  Even Southwest - with their empty middle seat pledge - are putting you about two feet away from three to five other people.

 

But is not not so much the flying as the stupid, arrogant, self-centered attitude of the slags of society who believe that they are not at risk and who do not give a damn about anyone else.

 

[clo]

3 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

Cruising may be no more dangerous than some other things —but it does not take a rocket scientist to understand that purely non-essential recreation can be more easily deferred than worthwhile activity.

 

NBT, why don't people (even) here get it?  I love to travel. Really, really love it. When we were both working we always lived below our means and one goal was to be able to travel. But if I'm going to seriously take a big risk I'm not going to do it. And Bob is with me 100%. I'm so frustrated by this I want to scream. There seem to be intelligent people who don't get it. I don't think they're stupid and there's no excuse for being ignorant. ?????

[ldubs]

6 hours ago, luckyinpa said:

i dont live in a big city . can someone comment on how NYC, LA etc are doing? are the subways empty or full. skyscrapers doing 4 people per elevator or filling them? i know in NJ the casinos allow 4 people per elevator and they are smaller than an office skyscraper. i just hope as much attention is being given to the ubiquity of general office life vs cruising. to be consistent things like disney and movies should never full open, if at all. ive seen vids on tv about the local shore communities, no distancing there.  

i was in an airport in march and june so know how they are doing. planes empty in march. packed in june. 

 

i just fail to see how much more dangerous cruising is than every other thing in the USA. sports is doing things with no audience. which  is consistent. 

 

LA and other southern Calif counties are basically driving California's poor numbers.   

 

Anyway, for the sake of argument I'll accept everything you say about the dangers of offices, casinos, beaches and airports.  That does not mean cruise ship exposures should be ignored.  Fair or not, until the pandemic is fully managed cruise ships have a huge exposure.