Will you cruise if vaccination is mandatory in order to board?

[jfunk138]

1 minute ago, SelectSys said:

It will very likely be mandatory based on what is going on in Israel.  Get ready for a new world of digital identity!

 

https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-vaccination-passports-7a8ce11ce37c309d97969ab71df26e62

 

Inside Israel, green passports or badges obtained through an app is the coin of the realm. The country recently reached agreements with Greece and Cyprus to recognize each other’s green badges, and more such tourism-boosting accords are expected.

Anyone unwilling or unable to get the jabs that confer immunity will be “left behind,” said Health Minister Yuli Edelstein.

“It’s really the only way forward at the moment,” Geffen said in an interview with The Associated Press.

 

Those that have recovered from COVID can also get the passport.

Only people displaying a “green passport” that proved they had been vaccinated or had recovered from COVID-19 could get in.

I for one will be fighting these "social credit" systems in the US.  I suspect Europe will also be very resistant... this isn't their first rodeo.

[SelectSys]

16 minutes ago, jfunk138 said:

I for one will be fighting these "social credit" systems in the US.  I suspect Europe will also be very resistant... this isn't their first rodeo.

 

Big everything seems to be winning these days.  We'll see how far it goes.  Cruise lines really likely don't care about these except as it relates to meeting government policies and avoiding lawsuits as they attempt to make as much money as possible - which includes not having large numbers of people sick on board.

[jfunk138]

1 minute ago, SelectSys said:

 

Big everything seems to be winning these days.  We'll see how far it goes.  Cruise lines really likely don't care about these except as it relates to meeting government policies and avoiding lawsuits as they attempt to make as much money as possible - which includes not having large numbers of people sick on board.

You aren't kidding about big everything winning these days.  It's shocking.  

 

Diamond Princess had ~700 infected, 300 of which ever had symptoms.  I wonder how these counts compare to a typical cruiseship norovirus outbreak?  If it hadn't been so hard to get a port to accept the passengers, I don't think the cruiselines would have been all that bothered (as evidenced by them continuing to sail during this time when fear and uncertainty was much higher than now)

[capriccio]

15 minutes ago, jfunk138 said:

You aren't kidding about big everything winning these days.  It's shocking.  

 

Diamond Princess had ~700 infected, 300 of which ever had symptoms.  I wonder how these counts compare to a typical cruiseship norovirus outbreak? 

 

According to the CDC (https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/vsp/pub/norovirus/norovirus.htm)

 

From 2008 to 2014, 74 million passengers sailed on cruise ships in the Vessel Sanitation Program’s jurisdiction. Only 129,678 passengers met the program’s case definition for acute gastrointestinal illness and only a small proportion of those cases (1 in 10) were part of a norovirus outbreak. 

 

Why are acute gastrointestinal illnesses including noroviruses associated with cruise ships?

• Health officials track illness on cruise ships. So outbreaks are found and reported more quickly on a cruise ship than on land.
• Close living quarters may increase the amount of group contact.
• People joining the ship may bring the virus to other passengers and crew.

Edited February 26, 2021 by capriccio

[jfunk138]

1 minute ago, capriccio said:

 

According to the CDC (https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/vsp/pub/norovirus/norovirus.htm)

 

From 2008 to 2014, 74 million passengers sailed on cruise ships in the Vessel Sanitation Program’s jurisdiction. Only 129,678 passengers met the program’s case definition for acute gastrointestinal illness and only a small proportion of those cases (1 in 10) were part of a norovirus outbreak. 

 

Why are acute gastrointestinal illnesses including noroviruses associated with cruise ships?

• Health officials track illness on cruise ships. So outbreaks are found and reported more quickly on a cruise ship than on land.
• Close living quarters may increase the amount of group contact.
• People joining the ship may bring the virus to other passengers and crew.

In absolute numbers, noro was obviously a larger problem than corona was allowed to become.  Per outbreak numbers would be interesting to compare how widely it moved around a ship when it happened.

[Daniel A]

1 hour ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

Well yes.  But the reports were specifically about nurses.

On another thread I wrote that I have a good friend who was in a Boston hospital from October to January due to a serious non-Covid related condition.  His doctors gave him a green light to go home after being cooped up in the same room for all those months.  The day before he was to be discharged he was told he needed to be in full quarantine mode and stay in the hospital for at least 2 more weeks.  The reason was because one of his nurses tested positive for Covid.  That nurse had decided to refuse the vaccine.  "First, do no harm."  😠 

Edited February 26, 2021 by Daniel A

[capriccio]

11 minutes ago, jfunk138 said:

In absolute numbers, noro was obviously a larger problem than corona was allowed to become.  Per outbreak numbers would be interesting to compare how widely it moved around a ship when it happened.

https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/vsp/surv/GIlist.htm

[jfunk138]

1 minute ago, capriccio said:

https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/vsp/surv/GIlist.htm

Excellent.  Looking at 2019 data is appears ~5% on the ship get it when an outbreak happens.

 

Compared with ~8% for the Diamond Princess.  Yes Covid is more transmissible, but not dramatically so.  Though those passengers were all stuck on there for over 20 days, so cruise duration may have something to do with that.

[frantic36]

6 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

Give this as an example. When FB shut down all news sites in Australia including charities, bloggers, medical and government notifications pages you know what they did keep up? Conspiracy theorists and anti vaxers pages. Absolutely screams bias by FB😒. 

 

So true! I found this very telling that this was the case that all the anti-vac and conspiracy theory pages were the only "news" sources left on site. Just confirmed why I rarely look at Facebook, especially to get any informed information.

 

Even when we had the fires here in the West a few weeks ago the Facebook sites for Emergency Services were not that helpful and far better information on other sites.

[Joebucks]

5 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Love how you twist facts and use quotes out of context. I guess most are not going to spend the time required to look up the actual information; they are content to believe this crap -- and you talk about sheep! 🐑

 

What is true:

• Currently approved vaccines did not undergo testing to prove whether they reduce disease TRANSMISSION, only individual infection and outcomes (that is to say, not whether I will infect others, but whether I will get sick.)
• Historically most vaccines do reduce transmission, but scientists (unlike some people) are not going to make that statement until they have proof.
• Studies are underway now to look at this and we should all know more soon.
• Until then, it is wise to treat the vaccine as a way of reducing YOUR OWN RISK of dying of the disease or having a severe enough case to warrant hospitalization. However, if infected, even though you may have mild or no symptoms, you could pass the disease to others.
• This is why we should still wear masks -- as from the very beginning, they are worn to protect others more so than to protect ourselves.

So why get vaccinated?  Because I don't want to die if I get COVID. It's that simple. Half a million people is, I guess not enough to convince some but it is more than enough to convince me.

 

I was yelled at because the whole premise of the vaccine was to protect others. Especially those who can't get the vaccine. I already had COVID. So what do I really need the vaccine for?

[d9704011]

6 minutes ago, Joebucks said:

I was yelled at because the whole premise of the vaccine was to protect others.

No, it’s not.

[cruisemom42]

12 minutes ago, Joebucks said:

 

I was yelled at because the whole premise of the vaccine was to protect others. Especially those who can't get the vaccine. I already had COVID. So what do I really need the vaccine for?

 

You are mixing up two different things. Individual infections and herd immunity.

 

Besides, you could still become reinfected with the same strain after immunity wanes or with a different strain.

 

[Mary229]

16 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

Besides, you could still become reinfected with the same strain after immunity wanes or with a different strain.

There is not yet any definitive results on that research, we just don't know.  I think we likely will know by summer

[cruisemom42]

3 hours ago, broberts said:

 

It is a sign of how insular we have become that you believe the majority of the population is anti vaccination or would chose to cruise on a ship that did not require vaccinations.

 

I certainly do NOT think that, not sure how you interpreted my post in that way.

 

According to my reckoning there are probably less than 20 ships (out of more than 300 currently sailing worldwide) that would fall into the mega-ship category -- the category most suited to vacationers wanting to stay onboard a ship and be entertained. 

 

And by the same token based on a couple of (admittedly unscientific) polls, it seems about 10% give or take a couple % points either don't want to get vaccinated or don't mind traveling on a ship where vaccination isn't mandatory.

 

Hence, a match made in heaven. 

 

Plus, in a post-COVID world ports may be less anxious to welcome 5,000 passengers all disembarking at once -- and not just from a disease perspective.

 

[navybankerteacher]

4 hours ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

Well yes.  But the reports were specifically about nurses.

And what reports were those?  I have only seen (reported ad nauseum) reports referring to "health care workers".  I certainly have not seen any such reports based upon truly qualified commentators : medical doctors.

[broberts]

4 hours ago, jfunk138 said:

Tell that to soldiers, miners, construction workers and various other dangerous jobs.  Nobody is being forced to work on a cruiseship.

 

There are known dangers with all these occupations. Yet the employers do have a duty to protect employees from unnecessary risk. Some of this is enshrined in legislation, some in common law. Even the military is big on workplace safety, especially on the battlefield. Or are you suggesting that construction and mining companies can simply ignore work site safety practices? 

[John Bull]

 

JB 🙂

[Daniel A]

12 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

And what reports were those?  I have only seen (reported ad nauseum) reports referring to "health care workers".  I certainly have not seen any such reports based upon truly qualified commentators : medical doctors.

I got 'flamed' on another thread for posting this so I'll try to make this post easier easier to grasp for the reading comprehension compromised. 

 

When developing the list of who gets the first vaccines, it was doctors and their co-workers who were at the very top of the list.  That list was compiled by doctors.

 

Now, for the 'flame' retardant:  I am suggesting that since doctors would understand the vaccines better than anyone else, why would they put themselves and the entire medical community at risk if they weren't sure that the vaccines are indeed, safe and effective?   

[Ride-The-Waves]

22 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

It is interesting (read: frightening) to see how many people prefer to get their information from Facebook and the on-line supermarket tabloids than from established and reputable medical sources.

 

  Paying attention to polls of “health care workers” without distinguishing between educated doctors and nursing home cleaners - makes about as much sense as getting on a plane flown by a baggage handler rather than a trained pilot —- after all both are aviation industry workers 

Good observation.  Last week dropped off a copy of out Pfizer vaccination records with the PCP's office.  Young receptionist took the information for our medical records.  She offered that she was not going to get the vaccine.  Raised several concerns to me, to include her own health and that of her family as a person who is the initial greeter for the PCP, and that she could be a COVID spreader to all those patients visiting the PCP.  Not good.  One month ago in another doctor's office, this one a neurosurgeon on call for emergencies, he received the vaccination but no one else in the office was offered it by the medical center.  Hopefully by now everyone in that office is vaccinated.

[ontheweb]

1 hour ago, navybankerteacher said:

Doesn’t this sort of selection make sense?  Virtually every choice a person makes has consequences - some immediate and obvious, some more remote and subtle

And some are unintended.

[ilikeanswers]

9 minutes ago, SelectSys said:

That was never a target and wasn't tagged as news

 

These are also not tagged as new.

 

Welcome to big tech!

 

Another leap on your part.  I have no faith whatsoever in FB and have never had an account.  CC and some investor stuff is about as far as I get into social media.

 

My only faith in FB is that they will do whatever is in their interest as defined by Zuckerberg and his lieutenants!  

 

I feel like I am writing one thing and you are reading something else😳. Yes conspiracy pages not tagged as news neither are charity pages, blogs or emergency fire warning pages but they get shut down and conspiracy theorists do not. That is the whole point. And the e safety commision had nothing to do with news deal, I was just making the point that whatever you say about metadata is clearly the tip of the iceberg. You're over analysing every word and spliting it up you are removing the context and turning it into whatever you want it to mean.

Edited February 27, 2021 by ilikeanswers

[Daniel A]

17 minutes ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

Good observation.  Last week dropped off a copy of out Pfizer vaccination records with the PCP's office.  Young receptionist took the information for our medical records.  She offered that she was not going to get the vaccine.  Raised several concerns to me, to include her own health and that of her family as a person who is the initial greeter for the PCP, and that she could be a COVID spreader to all those patients visiting the PCP.  Not good.  One month ago in another doctor's office, this one a neurosurgeon on call for emergencies, he received the vaccination but no one else in the office was offered it by the medical center.  Hopefully by now everyone in that office is vaccinated.

I hope you informed the PCP that his receptionist is dispensing medical advice before they get to him/her. 

[Ride-The-Waves]

1 minute ago, Daniel A said:

I hope you informed the PCP that his receptionist is dispensing medical advice before they get to him/her. 

I intelligent enough to not consider her personal opinion on her taking the vaccination as "dispensing medical advice."  Its very likely her opinion is known within the PCP's office.  However, the decision to not get vaccinated and working in a doctor's office that focuses on primary care is just plain dumb, and a bit scary.

[navybankerteacher]

52 minutes ago, ontheweb said:

And some are unintended.

In most cases, the individual who experiences unintended consequences from his actions can be seen as deserving what he gets — for acting without thinking.

[Daniel A]

14 minutes ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

I intelligent enough to not consider her personal opinion on her taking the vaccination as "dispensing medical advice."  Its very likely her opinion is known within the PCP's office.  However, the decision to not get vaccinated and working in a doctor's office that focuses on primary care is just plain dumb, and a bit scary.

In my book, when an employee at a medical office 'raises concerns' about a medical procedure, they are dispensing medical advice.  You may have been intelligent enough to understand it was merely her 'personal opinion' but what about the other patients of that practice she may have scared off from getting the vaccine?  As you can see here, there are many who believe some of the crackpot theories about the vaccines.  It was ok for you to decide to not get involved, that's your choice and I'm not offering any judgement about it.

 

It is similar to a person going to a law office to engage an attorney to fight a traffic ticket.  If the receptionist offers her opinion by saying "Oh, I would just pay the fine and be done with it."  She would be offering legal advice even though it was just her 'opinion.'

 

I just think the doctor should know what his receptionist is saying to people.