EU Considering Travel Ban on US Citizens

[AncientWanderer]

21 minutes ago, npcl said:

unfortunately the President does not have the power to dictate health policy to the states. The CDC enforcement authority is limited to the national borders, and state lines. It can only advise the states.

 

The feds can supply money and equipment, they can approve drugs and medical equipment, but cannot direct state public health actions.

 

Of course even without enforcement ability backing the CDC recommendations could have had a major impact

 

I thought there was some kind of emergency override to this that gave the president authority, should he wish to avail himself of that.  Perhaps I'm mistaken.

But no matter.  There is so little unity of purpose right now, any road would have been the wrong one.  We needed to pull together, but we pulled apart instead.

 

At this point, I'm just a curmudgeon.  Very little quality leadership has been exhibited anywhere.  It was really nice to read @rafinmd 's post where he thought that things were well-handled in Maryland.  A bright spot is a bright spot.

 

 

 

[Stratheden]

1 hour ago, fatcat04 said:

@StrathedenI can't speak out of direct knowledge about Massachusetts as I don't live there but here are some numbers. Their average age of Covid fatality is 81 and 98% of those that died had underlying health conditions. Of the 7963 deaths, 5023 (63%) were in nursing homes or long term care facilities. You will find those kinds of nursing home percentages in a few hard hit places and some even less densely populated places outside the Northeast. Nursing home deaths have been a huge issue in many places. I think they are now saying 25% of US deaths have been patients in long term care facilities and nursing homes. Really make me want to keep my very senior but active and feisty momma home as long as humanly possible.

 

My own home state of Tennessee as of today..

Population:  approx 7 million

Tests: 727,268

Positives: 44,202

Recovered: 25,280

Deaths: 567

Nursing Home deaths: 142 (25%)

 

Numbers for counties with 500,000+ population:

Co names and city/Cases/Positive tests/Negative tests/Recovered/Deaths

Shelby (Memphis)      8,643,  10,383,  113,047,  5,900,  175

Davidson (Nashville)   8,258,  9,767,  64,945 ,  5,597, 103

 

Death rate is presently at 1.3% of positives and .0081% of the general population of the state.

 

In my county Davidson, the average age of those who have died is 72, with an age range of 41-101, most with underlying health conditions.

 

Our local health department and our state give daily press conferences and send out all the new stats every single day. I have been tracking them for months. Our local health department releases heat maps that keep track of hot spots in our county and they have a very good contact tracing program.

 

We are having a surge here in certain parts of town. I am not surprised as things have been slowly opening up and we had anticipated a surge in cases. Most cases have been in the 20-40 age groups. We did have 10k plus folks march in protest in Nashville a couple weeks back and several days of protests that had at least 1000 participants so.. yeah maybe that might have also contributed to it to some degree. The mayor encouraged everyone who attended a protest to go get tested as testing is free and open to anyone. He attended one and he got tested.

 

 

I am sure that our state would have just as many aged care facilities as MA.  My SIL is in aged care.  They were all locked down and no one was allowed visitors. They have had no cases at all.   A couple of aged care places in another state became a hot spot - lack of covid hygene processes.  I believe about 19 residents died.   We have a similar situation in Australia.whereby our State Premiers are responsible for each state so we do have different regulations state by state.  They have regular what is called National Cabinet Meetings where the National and State officials discuss the situation.

Some states, Western Australia and Queensland have their borders closed and no one from any other state is allowed in except by special compensation.  They require 2 weeks  Isolation in a hotel before you can enter.  
 

[iancal]

Stratheden....that is exactly why Australia, and others, have been successful.   Think about he exact opposite to this and you will approximate the US experience as a country.  

 

Hospitals, ICU's in particular, are at or approaching capacity today in Texas, California, and several other states.  As late as  Tuesday some senior political leaders were stating publicly that covid is beaten and that it will soon disappear.  That is the leadership at the moment.  

 

Where we live the health authority is moving on to test the population for antibodies since they have done widespread covid testing.  Covid testing is still  available and now have pharmacies will also be  performing test swabs on a walk up basis as long as the person has no symptoms or knowing been in contact with a person infected with the virus.  

Edited June 26, 2020 by iancal

[fatcat04]

1 hour ago, Stratheden said:

I am sure that our state would have just as many aged care facilities as MA.  My SIL is in aged care.  They were all locked down and no one was allowed visitors. They have had no cases at all.   A couple of aged care places in another state became a hot spot - lack of covid hygene processes.  I believe about 19 residents died.   We have a similar situation in Australia.whereby our State Premiers are responsible for each state so we do have different regulations state by state.  They have regular what is called National Cabinet Meetings where the National and State officials discuss the situation.

Some states, Western Australia and Queensland have their borders closed and no one from any other state is allowed in except by special compensation.  They require 2 weeks  Isolation in a hotel before you can enter.  
 

You and your nation have been very fortunate. Nursing home deaths from Covid have been a big problem in Europe as well from what I have read. The percentages are heartbreaking. I know many families here who only recently were able to see loved ones in nursing homes again after months. Very frightening for them.

 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-eu-casualties-idUSKBN22V1VI

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/16/across-the-world-figures-reveal-horrific-covid-19-toll-of-care-home-deaths

 

 

Edited June 26, 2020 by fatcat04

[kazu]

10 hours ago, Sir PMP said:

covid deaths vs population in %: Maryland 0.00051

                                                           Florida 0.00015

 

9 hours ago, Sir PMP said:

Arizona:0.00020

Texas:0.00008

 

These two percentages are meaningful for me: 

 

United States has 4.25% of the world’s population.

United States has over 25% of the world’s covid deaths.  

[rafinmd]

20 minutes ago, kazu said:

 

 

These two percentages are meaningful for me: 

 

United States has 4.25% of the world’s population.

United States has over 25% of the world’s covid deaths.  

I started to like that but changed my mind.  That's my country with 25% of the deaths and right now I wouldn't dare visit my brother in Florida.  I am all too aware and I like pointing it out but that doesn't make me happy.

 

Roy

[dockman]

wearing a mask is not a political statement

It is an IQ test.

[HAL4NOW]

3 hours ago, rafinmd said:

I started to like that but changed my mind.  That's my country with 25% of the deaths and right now I wouldn't dare visit my brother in Florida.  I am all too aware and I like pointing it out but that doesn't make me happy.

 

Roy

You could react with a "Thanks" instead of a like. The information Jacquie shared is statistically jarring enough to warrant a pause and I thank her for sharing.

[AncientWanderer]

4 hours ago, kazu said:

 

 

These two percentages are meaningful for me: 

 

United States has 4.25% of the world’s population.

United States has over 25% of the world’s covid deaths.  

 

I look carefully at the deaths per million population.  But it's hard to parse it all out because New York throws the figures out of kilter.  New York has been almost a country unto itself with regard to covid.

If anyone has found an analysis that removes New York from the mix, please do share.

[drowelf]

5 hours ago, kazu said:

 

 

These two percentages are meaningful for me: 

 

United States has 4.25% of the world’s population.

United States has over 25% of the world’s covid deaths.  

So right, there are a lot of numbers being thrown out every day and statistics can be jiggered to enhance your point of view.

 

But at least for me the most significant one that I pay attention to is the percentage of positive cases being detected each day (Total Tests/Positive Tests). If that number is going up then the infection is spreading, which is bad for single digits and really bad if in double digits. If the number is going down then it indicates the infection is getting under control and things are getting better. 

 

Sure the other numbers are meaningful too (deaths, hospitalizations, etc.) as its expected that as more people become infected those numbers go up. 

 

As for an actual travel ban to the EU, I have no problem with it, based on our infection rate I think its prudent for them. Hey we did it to them at the start, so I don't see where we have any position to complain about them banning us now. 

 

Edited June 26, 2020 by drowelf

[cruisemom42]

43 minutes ago, AncientWanderer said:

 

I look carefully at the deaths per million population.  But it's hard to parse it all out because New York throws the figures out of kilter.  New York has been almost a country unto itself with regard to covid.

If anyone has found an analysis that removes New York from the mix, please do share.

 

Perhaps that is true, but what is worth remembering is that what happened in New York (greater area) can easily happen in other large metropolitan areas as well. There is nothing unique about New York that caused the virus to wreak havoc there. 

 

Houston may well be next.

 

[chipmaster]

6 hours ago, kazu said:

 

 

These two percentages are meaningful for me: 

 

United States has 4.25% of the world’s population.

United States has over 25% of the world’s covid deaths.  

A plot is easier to understand, see the latest, any questions 😞

[HAL4NOW]

1 hour ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Perhaps that is true, but what is worth remembering is that what happened in New York (greater area) can easily happen in other large metropolitan areas as well. There is nothing unique about New York that caused the virus to wreak havoc there. 

 

Houston may well be next.

 

Actually, there is something unique about New York/New Jersey Metropolitan area. The population density is much higher; Houston, Los Angeles, and most cities in the western and mid-west states have much lower population density.

As a west-coast guy, I also am quite aware of the encroachment of personal space when in the presence of people from Jersey and New York. They are just naturally more comfortable with closeness during conversations than we are in the west.

[cruisemom42]

2 minutes ago, HAL4NOW said:

Actually, there is something unique about New York/New Jersey Metropolitan area. The population density is much higher; Houston, Los Angeles, and most cities in the western and mid-west states have much lower population density.

As a west-coast guy, I also am quite aware of the encroachment of personal space when in the presence of people from Jersey and New York. They are just naturally more comfortable with closeness during conversations than we are in the west.

 

I'm not so sure about that. Not when you are comparing urbanized areas -- see this: https://www.shoupdogg.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/0506OsgoogEtAl_LANYDensity_report.pdf

 

I don't think you have to stand as close as a New Yorker to actively spread the virus. And any true "city" with densely packed office spaces, public transportation, etc. can be a place where something like this takes off.

 

Where I live, it's not any big surprise that -- since the very beginning of the US covid spread -- the three most densely populated counties around the major urban city in my state have had the highest rates of infection.

 

[tommui987]

Dead is dead whether you are white, black, red or yellow.

The Corona virus (or any other virus) does not carry a passport or have a visa and certainly doesn't worry about borders.

[HAL4NOW]

12 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

I'm not so sure about that. Not when you are comparing urbanized areas -- see this: https://www.shoupdogg.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/0506OsgoogEtAl_LANYDensity_report.pdf

 

I don't think you have to stand as close as a New Yorker to actively spread the virus. And any true "city" with densely packed office spaces, public transportation, etc. can be a place where something like this takes off.

 

Where I live, it's not any big surprise that -- since the very beginning of the US covid spread -- the three most densely populated counties around the major urban city in my state have had the highest rates of infection.

 

Thank you, cruisemom42, for the link to the to the research paper produced by Livable Places.

The conclusion to the paper was that New York City is almost four times as dense as Los Angeles, and that using an urbanized area comparison was not comparing apples to apples and was a low-quality comparison.

 

For myself, I live in a town in King County, WA, with a population of about 200. We are surrounded by National Forests, and National Wilderness areas. Even in our counties largest city, Seattle,  the feeling of elbow room and physical space is far better than in Los Angeles. And the feeling of elbow room in Los Angeles is much better than in New York.

[MTAK]

13 hours ago, iancal said:

As late as  Tuesday some senior political leaders were stating publicly that covid is beaten and that it will soon disappear.  That is the leadership at the moment.  

 

 

Who was saying this?

[AncientWanderer]

1 hour ago, HAL4NOW said:

Actually, there is something unique about New York/New Jersey Metropolitan area. The population density is much higher; Houston, Los Angeles, and most cities in the western and mid-west states have much lower population density.

As a west-coast guy, I also am quite aware of the encroachment of personal space when in the presence of people from Jersey and New York. They are just naturally more comfortable with closeness during conversations than we are in the west.

 

Totally agree.  We are "westerners."  When our daughter lived in Manhattan, I was always worried about a situation arising just as we have now.  Between those who live there and those who visit, it is just super, super crowded.  Obviously there are cities around the world that are crowded like NYC, but it is pretty unique as a city here in the U.S.

 

[KroozNut]

7 hours ago, dockman said:

wearing a mask is not a political statement

It is an IQ test.

 

Clever, but meaningless statement.

[dockman]

59 minutes ago, KroozNut said:

 

Clever, but meaningless statement.

 

Your opinion.  Not mine.  

 

I spent many years in Asia where in many countries it is considered common courtesy to your fellow human beings to wear a mask when you even have a common cold so as to minimize at least somewhat the chances of spreading the germs to others.  Maybe if nothing else we could use a bit more common courtesy, not to mention common sense in USA.

[bennybear]

One just has to look at the numbers for Japan and South Korea.  Tokyo has 38 million people and incredible density,  but the masks obviously work.  

Edited June 26, 2020 by bennybear

[kazu]

Well, there is no discussion now.  The United States has been blocked due to lack of control of Covid 19.

 

The story is here and since covid stories are not subject to subscription, you should be able to read it.  https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/26/world/europe/europe-us-travel-ban.html?campaign_id=60&emc=edit_na_20200626&instance_id=0&nl=breaking-news&ref=cta&regi_id=81438049&segment_id=31984&user_id=45e2ab3fd0bee218f7a570289f1f4167

 

But in case anyone cannot - here are the countries that ARE allowed entry into the EU.  It speaks volumes to who they think has covid under control and who does not.

 

The full list finalized on Friday includes Algeria, Australia, Canada, Georgia, Japan, Montenegro, Morocco, New Zealand, Rwanda, Serbia, South Korea, Thailand, Tunisia, Uruguay, Andorra, San Marino, Monaco and the Vatican. China will be included if it also opens its borders to European Union travelers, as reciprocal reopening is one of the criteria used to make the final selection for the safe list.

Britain, despite having left the E.U., is still being considered part of the bloc until year’s end, and so was not part of the discussion over outside visitors.

 

 

[rafinmd]

13 minutes ago, kazu said:

Well, there is no discussion now.  The United States has been blocked due to lack of control of Covid 19.

 

The full list finalized on Friday includes Algeria, Australia, Canada, Georgia, Japan, Montenegro, Morocco, New Zealand, Rwanda, Serbia, South Korea, Thailand, Tunisia, Uruguay, Andorra, San Marino, Monaco and the Vatican. China will be included if it also opens its borders to European Union travelers, as reciprocal reopening is one of the criteria used to make the final selection for the safe list.

Britain, despite having left the E.U., is still being considered part of the bloc until year’s end, and so was not part of the discussion over outside visitors.

Wow!  Cruising could start in Europe with the US locked out.

 

Roy

Edited June 26, 2020 by rafinmd

[Sir PMP]

They are sure looking forward to tourists from Andorra ans San Marino.

[UnorigionalName]

On 6/25/2020 at 5:42 PM, HaveWeMetYet said:

I wonder if people in Southeast Asia into the South Pacific have some sort of higher immunity. The numbers are really low especially in the densely populated cities of SE Asia.

Europe, North America, South America, and the Middle East all are fairly similar. High deaths in dense cities with mass transit.

A slow and later rise in less populated areas.

Just wondering, I have not read anything that supports it.

 

I don't think there is any data that supports that view.  I think all data (too lazy to look up other sources right now) that I've seen is that asians actually have slightly worse outcomes than caucasians.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/need-extra-precautions/racial-ethnic-minorities.html

 

Also, if you look at the growth rate of the disease in the early course of the outbreaks, most countries including the asian countries had a similar early slope (ie R0) at the outset.  It's probably going to end up a combination of masks, and just greater social awareness and cultural respect for their fellow human being.  Can't attribute it all to government, as Japan has a notoriously useless central government, and their cases are burning out without the government needing to do much at all.

 

Here in the states we get news about people getting attacked for wearing masks.  In Japan they get news like this:

https://www.foxnews.com/world/coronavirus-outbreak-japan-train-delay

Edited June 27, 2020 by UnorigionalName