CDC Lifts Cruise Ban

[Milwaukee Eight]

1 hour ago, Pratique said:

They never imposed anything like this on the airlines.

Cruise ships are not airlines. 

[leisuretraveler223]

 

1 hour ago, Pratique said:

They never imposed anything like this on the airlines.

1 hour ago, island lady said:

Another weird thing....why start with short sailings?  Isn't there a lot more turnover of fresh virus possibilities with more people coming and going more often?  

19 minutes ago, smplybcause said:

 

One airplane can fly thousands in the span of a week though. While longer exposure to an infected person increases your likelihood of getting it, it doesn't mean it can't be contracted in a "limited time frame". 

 

These types of responses make me think some people don't really understand the critical problem cruises are facing.

 

It's not about how many people interact on a flight. And it's not about more people getting on and off a ship because it's a short cruise.  The absolutely TOXIC component of cruises is the extended self contained interaction of a fixed group of people.  

 

A flight can be up to twelve hours or more. And yes, the potential to have several people infected is real.  However, the ability of something like Covid to spread through a cruise ship, where people are held together for seven days if a whole different ballgame.

 

Cruising has a LONG way to go before it even remotely resembles what it once was.  

 

Nothing has been figured out to address the underlying problem.  And comparing it to air travel only demonstrates one's lack of understanding.

 

 

[molly361]

Was there anywhere that mentioned the number of days for the simulated sailing?

[Hoopster95]

17 minutes ago, leisuretraveler223 said:

....some people don't really understand the critical problem cruises are facing.

Nothing has been figured out to address the underlying problem.  And comparing it to air travel only demonstrates one's lack of understanding.

 

Have you not read some of the previous responses?....

Logic and common sense do not belong on this forum 😉

Edited October 30, 2020 by Hoopster95

[Baron Barracuda]

Paraphrasing pp 33-34 - minimum standard for covid affected cruise (doesn't say how many cases trigger this)

- Isolate infected passenger/crew

- quarantine everyone else

- terminate sailing and return to embarkation port

- disembark and evacuate everyone

-  transport passengers and crew using non-commercial transport

- cancel future voyages until given permission

[smplybcause]

19 minutes ago, leisuretraveler223 said:

 

 

These types of responses make me think some people don't really understand the critical problem cruises are facing.

 

It's not about how many people interact on a flight. And it's not about more people getting on and off a ship because it's a short cruise.  The absolutely TOXIC component of cruises is the extended self contained interaction of a fixed group of people.  

 

A flight can be up to twelve hours or more. And yes, the potential to have several people infected is real.  However, the ability of something like Covid to spread through a cruise ship, where people are held together for seven days if a whole different ballgame.

 

Cruising has a LONG way to go before it even remotely resembles what it once was.  

 

Nothing has been figured out to address the underlying problem.  And comparing it to air travel only demonstrates one's lack of understanding.

 

 

 

Yes, but going to a theme park where you're surrounded by thousands on day one. And then a new thousands on day 2, etc. But most people don't stay at the parks for more than a few days and with next to know contact tracing it's impossible to pin point where they got it. Similar to planes, but in much larger numbers. The only difference is that on longer cruises people are all still in one place together when the symptoms start to present whereas with planes and people that go to theme parks they're flung all over the place and make it practically impossible to point when someone is infected. 

 

There's nothing inherently different regarding exposure between eating in a restaurant on a cruise ship and eating in one at Disney World except the cruise ship still knows where you are a few days later and Disney doesn't have a clue and doesn't care. 

 

BTW most of the big super spreader events are singular events that only last a few hours. 

Edited October 30, 2020 by smplybcause

[sandebeach]

18 minutes ago, molly361 said:

Was there anywhere that mentioned the number of days for the simulated sailing?

FB announcement from RC but it does not say anything about number of days for trial cruises. 

[Baron Barracuda]

Interesting that they have to test and provide results prior to embarkation and disembarkation.  Plus possibly again after disembarking.

[SV1432]

3 minutes ago, Hoopster95 said:

 

Have you not read some of the previous responses?....

Logic and common sense do not belong on this forum 😉

Speak for yourself. Between various on line forums, I have become an expert as an epidemiologist. Medical School is so yesterday. I have Google and some of my closest anonymous internet friends. 🤪🤪

[toad455]

Why would they give out info about the trial cruises when they're not available to the public?

[sandebeach]

Also interesting that CDC requires all marketing materials to state that cruises pose a COVID risk. 

[twangster]

It is inevitable that some cases may slip on board an airplane or a cruise ship. 

 

I have sailed many cruises before where I have gone the entire cruise and not sat beside the same people at a bar, in the WJ or in the MDR (I only do anytime).   That was before reduced capacity.  I am confident at some point over the past 8 months I have walked past someone in a grocery store who later learned they were positive.   Walking past someone doesn't equate to a high risk of infection especially when masks are used.

 

On an airplane even for a 1 hour flight if the stranger I have to sit beside is positive, then me sitting right beside them for an hour has much greater risk of infection.   It's almost assured breathing the same air with someone 18" away for an hour will cause infection.  

 

I feel much safer on a ship knowing I can maintain distance.  I can turn around and walk away from a family coming the other direction.  When I walk my dog here at home and another dog walker is coming down the sidewalk, one of us crosses over to the other side.  I can do the same on a ship, absent of my dog.  

 

On an airplane I am strapped in with nowhere to go.  I can't move.  I can't escape.

 

Indeed flying and cruising are very different.  On a cruise with someone who is asymptomatic I have a chance.  

 

 

Edited October 30, 2020 by twangster

[firefly333]

5 minutes ago, SV1432 said:

Speak for yourself. Between various on line forums, I have become an expert as an epidemiologist. Medical School is so yesterday. I have Google and some of my closest anonymous internet friends. 🤪🤪

Unless you stayed in a holiday inn last night I believe nothing you say.

 

So b2bs out? I cant wait to find out more details and see cruises start. 

[twangster]

4 minutes ago, sandebeach said:

Also interesting that CDC requires all marketing materials to state that cruises pose a COVID risk. 

 

Remember the Zika virus?  I recall being inundated with Zika warnings booking and checking in for a cruise.  

 

I have no issue with cruises line marketing requiring CV-19 warnings.

[leisuretraveler223]

9 minutes ago, smplybcause said:

 

Yes, but going to a theme park where you're surrounded by thousands on day one. And then a new thousands on day 2, etc. But most people don't stay at the parks for more than a few days and with next to know contact tracing it's impossible to pin point where they got it. Similar to planes, but in much larger numbers. The only difference is that on longer cruises people are all still in one place together when the symptoms start to present whereas with planes and people that go to theme parks they're flung all over the place and make it practically impossible to point when someone is infected. 

 

There's nothing inherently different regarding exposure between eating in a restaurant on a cruise ship and eating in one at Disney World except the cruise ship still knows where you are a few days later and Disney doesn't have a clue and doesn't care. 

 

BTW most of the big super spreader events are singular events that only last a few hours. 

 

Wow, there is a lot to unpack here.

 

Once again, the problem with the cruise model is a large, but very finite group of people that are intimately interwoven for an extended period of time.  Yes, at a theme park, you can potentially be exposed to thousands and thousands of people a day, and then thousands more the next day.  Epidemiologically speaking that is far more preferable to PREVENT spread than spending a week continuously interacting with the same people.

 

Symptoms can take up to 14 days, so for most cruises your explanation that they are on long enough for symptoms is only the tip of the iceberg (bad analogy with cruising, I know!).

 

There is a huge difference eating in a restaurant on a cruise ship, because you're likely encountering the same people meal after meal, day after day.  That increases the degree of transmission tremendously.  If you eat at a restaurant on land, you have one shot to get it from the infected person nearby.  Not so on a cruise ship.

 

Contact tracing and "knowing where you are in a few days" is far more critical when a small number of people interact for a large amount of time.  It's much less compelling when a large number of people interact for a short period of time.

 

Most "big super spreader events" have been singular events, because that is all that is going on right now!  A dozen people getting it at a White House ceremony or a teenage party is nothing compared to what we would see if 1,500 people spent seven days together on a cruise ship right now.

 

Look, I understand your passion, and on the surface, your reasoning sounds good.  But as someone with close to 20 years in medicine, I assure you, you are making the entirely WRONG assumptions and reaching conclusions that are pure fantasy.

[BirdTravels]

2 hours ago, danv3 said:

Somewhat surprisingly (to me at least), page 32 says that the cruise operator must conduct testing at embarkation and disembarkation.  So having a test back home 48-72 hours before you board is unlikely to suffice.  

Nope. But you can pre-test yourself to avoid packing needlessly. It is actually better/easier. I have tried to time a test for travel and it is impossible to get a commitment on processing time. 

[twangster]

4 minutes ago, BirdTravels said:

Nope. But you can pre-test yourself to avoid packing needlessly. It is actually better/easier. I have tried to time a test for travel and it is impossible to get a commitment on processing time. 

 

Yep.  That'll be my plan since I have to fly.  Test at home at my expense so I know to fly or not. 

 

Not a bad thing really.  If I'm asymptomatic positive it's better that I don't go out and risk others. 

 

Hopefully testing time will improve in our future.

Edited October 30, 2020 by twangster

[leisuretraveler223]

8 minutes ago, twangster said:

It is inevitable that some cases may slip on board an airplane or a cruise ship. 

 

I have sailed many cruises before where I have gone the entire cruise and not sat beside the same people at a bar, in the WJ or in the MDR (I only do anytime).   That was before reduced capacity.  I am confident at some point over the past 8 months I have walked past someone in a grocery store who later learned they were positive.   Walking past someone doesn't equate to a high risk of infection especially when masks are used.

 

On an airplane even for a 1 hour flight if the stranger I have to sit beside is positive, then me sitting right beside them for an hour has much greater risk of infection.   It's almost assured breathing the same air with someone 18" away for an hour will cause infection.  

 

I feel much safer on a ship knowing I can maintain distance.  I can turn around and walk away from a family coming the other direction.  When I walk my dog here at home and another dog walker is coming down the sidewalk, one of us crosses over to the other side.  I can do the same on a ship, absent of my dog.  

 

On an airplane I am strapped in with nowhere to go.  I can't move.  I can't escape.

 

Indeed flying and cruising are very different.  On a cruise with someone who is asymptomatic I have a chance.  

 

 

 

You are giving yourself a false sense of confidence thinking that because you're not dining with the same people, or sitting next to the same people, you're better off.  Within a closed system, that is actually a big part of the problem.  I don't think you realize the exponential nature of the connections that can be made in a closed system over a period of time.  So every one of those interactions increases your chances of getting and transmitting it.  But since you're all in a closed system, those connections all come much closer together.  The potential for rampant spread is exactly because of the fact that you do interact with a good variety of those people.

 

As for the airplane analogy, when you're talking 1:1 transmission, you may be right (although current data has shown potential spread on planes is not nearly as risky as one might think).  However, it's not a closed system (or at least it is one that is limited in interaction and duration).  That person who is infect might infect one or two.  But if the passengers all took flights together for a week, continuously sitting in different seats, then the concern for rampant spread would be much greater.

 

I don't think you are appreciating the issues with a closed system.

 

[mek]

Thank heavens this came up - we were running out of things to discuss.

 

It should be very entertaining and a popcorn worthy topic.

[smplybcause]

4 minutes ago, leisuretraveler223 said:

 

Wow, there is a lot to unpack here.

 

Once again, the problem with the cruise model is a large, but very finite group of people that are intimately interwoven for an extended period of time.  Yes, at a theme park, you can potentially be exposed to thousands and thousands of people a day, and then thousands more the next day.  Epidemiologically speaking that is far more preferable to PREVENT spread than spending a week continuously interacting with the same people.

 

Symptoms can take up to 14 days, so for most cruises your explanation that they are on long enough for symptoms is only the tip of the iceberg (bad analogy with cruising, I know!).

 

There is a huge difference eating in a restaurant on a cruise ship, because you're likely encountering the same people meal after meal, day after day.  That increases the degree of transmission tremendously.  If you eat at a restaurant on land, you have one shot to get it from the infected person nearby.  Not so on a cruise ship.

 

Contact tracing and "knowing where you are in a few days" is far more critical when a small number of people interact for a large amount of time.  It's much less compelling when a large number of people interact for a short period of time.

 

Most "big super spreader events" have been singular events, because that is all that is going on right now!  A dozen people getting it at a White House ceremony or a teenage party is nothing compared to what we would see if 1,500 people spent seven days together on a cruise ship right now.

 

Look, I understand your passion, and on the surface, your reasoning sounds good.  But as someone with close to 20 years in medicine, I assure you, you are making the entirely WRONG assumptions and reaching conclusions that are pure fantasy.

 

So then what's your explanation for why the cruises that resumed over in Europe haven't had hundreds or thousands of cases on each sailing? Because based on what you're saying they all should have been infecting each other left and right.

[Sunshine3601]

3 hours ago, molly361 said:

It seem like there are lots of hoops for them to jump thru BEFORE than can even announce a start date for cruising

I was going to say the exact same thing, definitely have lots of hoops to jump thru before they can get their Certificate to Sail.   I cannot see them announcing new start date just yet.    probably do their usual and say we "plan" "hope" to start sailing in December or January.

I like how they are going to test prior to passengers disembarking too.   Will be interesting to see if passengers have to pay for both embarking and disembarking tests with RCL.   

[royal2020]

how has the cruises been in Europe ? i am going to assume that royal is going to follow similar guidelines like they do in Europe. has those cruise lines in Europe or are they having issues as well with covid even with the changes for health.

[Mapleleafforever]

I can't wait for the new reviews to start coming in. 

[Eddie Wilson]

33 minutes ago, twangster said:

On an airplane even for a 1 hour flight if the stranger I have to sit beside is positive, then me sitting right beside them for an hour has much greater risk of infection.   It's almost assured breathing the same air with someone 18" away for an hour will cause infection.  

 

On an airplane I am strapped in with nowhere to go.  I can't move.  I can't escape

 

18 inches away is not always true.  

 

Lets put it this way, in my youth it took two or sometimes three dates to get as close and touchy as I am with the person next to me on airline flights.  I think most airlines are back to selling middle seats.

 

Eddie

[travelhound]

3 hours ago, molly361 said:

 

 

 

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/business/tourism-cruises/article246754076.html

This is very good news.  I just posted this information in the Carnival forum.