The Carnival Glory struck the Carnival Legend and almost hit the Oasis of the Seas

[Iamcruzin]

7 minutes ago, LXA350 said:

We are all enjoying crusing but does this incident bring up the point that we begin to experience a overcrowding at certain ports and due to space reasons the berts are very close together which increases the chance of such incidents going forward? Hence more strict regulations would be needed when it comes to the construction of ports and the maximum amount of ships it should handle at a time, especially if as this one has no shelter and is exposed to winds etc.

That's my opinion as well. Port experience has been diminished with the birth of mega ships. If I wanted to be on a crowded island beach I would just stay on Long Island.

[A&L_Ont]

21 minutes ago, LXA350 said:

We are all enjoying crusing but does this incident bring up the point that we begin to experience a overcrowding at certain ports and due to space reasons the berts are very close together which increases the chance of such incidents going forward? Hence more strict regulations would be needed when it comes to the construction of ports and the maximum amount of ships it should handle at a time, especially if as this one has no shelter and is exposed to winds etc.

Who do you propose should regulate that?  The island that needs the tourist dollar, or the cruise line that takes the tourists dollars? If it was unsafe (which it sure looked to be from reports) the port authority should have closed their port yesterday, at least to the ships that had yet to dock. Then Captain’s would not have to risk docking or like NCL they could have made an attempt and then decide to leave. 

 

11 minutes ago, Iamcruzin said:

That's my opinion as well. Port experience has been diminished with the birth of mega ships. If I wanted to be on a crowded island beach I would just stay on Long Island.

I don’t think it’s the mega ship, I think it is the public’s ever growing love to cruise. If there weren’t more people wanting to cruise the Freedom Class would never exist. 

Edited December 21, 2019 by A&L_Ont

[Capt_BJ]

'tunnel thrusters' lose there effect once the ship develops significant headway (or stern way)

 

this is why Disney has problems at Castaway when there is a significant wind perpendicular to the pier.  <using very not technical terms:>  While the thrusters can hold the ship against the wind while stationary and even gain ground 'up wind', as soon as motion fore or aft begins the wind overpowers the loss of side thrust. Only when sufficient speed is gained (forward) does the hull form 'dig in' and add resistance to the wind's side push. This is why DCL will almost ALWAYS BACK IN.  If they can back in .... they can thrust away from the pier then get forward speed quickly to exit the small/tight slip.  They learned this early when the ship pulled in bow first and the wind picked up during the day.  When trying to depart they could thrust away from the pier but speed doesn't come fast in reverse nor is the hull form correct to 'dig in', so when they'd transition to backing the ship lost side thrust and was quickly set back on the pier by the wind. They ended up spending the night ..... oops.

 

Tunnel thrusters are great for walking away from a pier laterally, or 'spinning in place' but useless for maneuvering when underway making way.

Edited December 21, 2019 by Capt_BJ

[Pratique]

1 hour ago, Iamcruzin said:

That's my opinion as well. Port experience has been diminished with the birth of mega ships. If I wanted to be on a crowded island beach I would just stay on Long Island.

Venice is considering limiting the number of cruise ships. I think in the next decade we will start to see more push back on the cruise industry.

[Pratique]

11 minutes ago, Capt_BJ said:

'This is why DCL will almost ALWAYS BACK IN.  If they can back in .... they can thrust away from the pier then get forward speed quickly to exit the small/tight slip. 

I've heard more than one captain say that given a choice they always to prefer to back in. This is a good example of why.

Edited December 21, 2019 by Pratique

[cruisekap]

I see lots of comments from. people who know how ships and thrusters etc. work.  I was just wondering who would have control of the ship at the time?  Captain or port pilot?  Who makes the decisions?

[Ocean Boy]

1 hour ago, Pratique said:

Venice is considering limiting the number of cruise ships. I think in the next decade we will start to see more push back on the cruise industry.

Venice has major structural issues and the ships are contributing to the problem. The city has a huge tourist base and would probably manage well without the money that the ships bring in. The poor Caribbean islands are a very different story. I don't think you would ever see pushback in the Caribbean that you might see in some other ports and especially Venice.

[ALWAYS CRUZIN]

8 hours ago, SSMEX said:

 

Not to be that person, and of course this depends on a million other factors, but all else being equal, a larger ship like Oasis is actually less prone to wind forces than a smaller ship. It all has to do with the scaling of surface area vs volume.

 

Imagine two cubes, one 2 ft on each edge, and the other 3 ft on each edge. The smaller cube has a volume of 8 cubic feet and a maximum surface area of 4 square feet exposed to the wind. The larger cube has a volume of 27 cubic feet, but only a maximum of 9 square feet exposed to the wind. Thus the larger cube has much more area to act as a sail, but a proportionally even larger amount of volume. Assuming cubes/ships are of similar density, this means that the larger cube/ship experiences less acceleration due to wind.

Your Scenario says. A smaller sail boat goes faster than a big one. So a smaller sail will catch more wind .Hum  Area of the vessel above the water. Which with sail boats are the sails. With ships. Everything above the water line.

[crewsweeper]

Understand there were 2 days of big storms  in Coz. Wind was pretty stiff. Celebrity couldn't dock at Punta Langosta. 

Glory did dock. Is heading back to home port. Next sailing will be delayed and itinerary shifted a bit. Repairs will be done on board either in port or at sea or combo. No structural hull damage. 

Edited December 21, 2019 by crewsweeper

[Pratique]

3 hours ago, Ocean Boy said:

Venice has major structural issues and the ships are contributing to the problem. The city has a huge tourist base and would probably manage well without the money that the ships bring in. The poor Caribbean islands are a very different story. I don't think you would ever see pushback in the Caribbean that you might see in some other ports and especially Venice.

We'll have to wait and see. The reasons may vary. Royal has already said that they expect fewer calls from San Juan beyond 2021.

[chengkp75]

On 12/20/2019 at 11:31 AM, payitforward said:

 

Thanks. With a prop and rudder system, I can better understand this accident in those winds.

Despite all the hype that the azipod makers put out, and the cruise lines that use them also spout, a prop and rudder system, which includes twin variable pitch propellers and high lift "Becker" or trim tab rudders is virtually as maneuverable as a podded ship.  The largest advantage of pods is in capital cost when building the ship.

 

The Promas system that has been mentioned is merely a system where there is a hub and pintle between the propeller and the front of the rudder, so there is no open area between the two, which smooths out the water flow and gives an efficiency boost.

[Capt_BJ]

https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/MAB1736.pdf

 

He also stated that pilots normally participated in the brief but that the assigned pilot did not participate this time because the Celebrity Infinity was in restricted waters and the pilot had to concentrate on conning the vessel.

 

Both the master and the staff captain told investigators that the master took over the conn at this point; however, the ship’s logbook does not reflect a change of conn from the staff captain to the master and nothing was heard on the VDR to indicate the master had the conn.

 

CCTV footage showed the master, pilot, and staff captain operating the bow thrusters and the master and the staff captain operating the pods after the anchor had been dropped.

 

just one example ...

[chengkp75]

On 12/20/2019 at 1:27 PM, John&LaLa said:

 

I used to think that, but I'm pretty sure the Captain is still at the helm.

Regardless, he's still in charge and can wave off the approach

Pilots are often there to advise, and satisfy contractual obligations. 💲💲

 

Makes you wonder why they decided to back the beast in

While the Captain is on the bridge, and is in overall charge of ship operations, and is overall responsible for the ship, he will have given the "conn" to the harbor pilot.  Whoever "has the conn" is the one person authorised to give orders to the bridge officers and the helmsman to maneuver the ship.  This is just like every day on the ship, when the Captain gives the conn to his bridge officers when he is not present on the bridge.  The Captain can always take the conn back from the pilot, but in 98% of dockings, the pilot is in charge, though many times when the ship is very close to the dock, and needs fine maneuvering to adjust exactly where the ship will dock, the Captain will take the conn.

[Ocean Boy]

54 minutes ago, Pratique said:

We'll have to wait and see. The reasons may vary. Royal has already said that they expect fewer calls from San Juan beyond 2021.

That has nothing to do with a crowding issue. It is a political response to a political action, at least as far as I can tell.

[Pratique]

6 minutes ago, Ocean Boy said:

That has nothing to do with a crowding issue. It is a political response to a political action, at least as far as I can tell.

From what I've read the port needs infrastructure upgrades to address the traffic.

[chengkp75]

12 hours ago, SSMEX said:

 

Not to be that person, and of course this depends on a million other factors, but all else being equal, a larger ship like Oasis is actually less prone to wind forces than a smaller ship. It all has to do with the scaling of surface area vs volume.

 

Imagine two cubes, one 2 ft on each edge, and the other 3 ft on each edge. The smaller cube has a volume of 8 cubic feet and a maximum surface area of 4 square feet exposed to the wind. The larger cube has a volume of 27 cubic feet, but only a maximum of 9 square feet exposed to the wind. Thus the larger cube has much more area to act as a sail, but a proportionally even larger amount of volume. Assuming cubes/ships are of similar density, this means that the larger cube/ship experiences less acceleration due to wind.

It doesn't really have anything to do with volume.  If there is more surface area facing the force (wind), then there is more total force on the larger ship than the smaller ship.  So, the wind pushes harder on the larger ship.  But, if the larger ship actually weighs more than the smaller ship (and remember that gross tonnage is volume, not weight), then the inertia of the larger ship will make it slower to respond to the force, but it is still subject to a larger force.

[ONECRUISER]

4 hours ago, crewsweeper said:

Understand there were 2 days of big storms  in Coz. Wind was pretty stiff. Celebrity couldn't dock at Punta Langosta. 

Glory did dock. Is heading back to home port. Next sailing will be delayed and itinerary shifted a bit. Repairs will be done on board either in port or at sea or combo. No structural hull damage. 

Little Bondo and Buff it out, will be like new... Wonder if she still has the New Ship smell

[Coralc]

The latest report said that 6 people were injured and seen in medical. I don't know it jumped from 1 injured person in the dining room evacuation to 6? But somehow it did.  It reminds me of our local bus accidents. After a minor collision, people that weren't even on the bus, jump onboard and are seemingly injured. JMO

Edited December 22, 2019 by Coralc

[John&LaLa]

Glad to see this back on track, thanks

[Milwaukee Eight]

20 minutes ago, John&LaLa said:

Glad to see this back on track, thanks

It was a wild ride for a bit, a ship crashing into another. 

[John Reid]

On 12/20/2019 at 10:09 AM, reallyitsmema said:

More here.

 

https://wpst.com/breaking-two-carnival-cruise-ships-collide-in-mexico-severe-damage-reported/

 

 

Looks like dining will be al fresco.

[bobmacliberty]

Will be interesting to see how/when Carnival fixes this.  

[twangster]

Tweet from Captain Johnny (Harmony)

 

 

 

[SeaHunt]

On 12/21/2019 at 2:38 PM, crewsweeper said:

Repairs will be done on board either in port or at sea or combo. No structural hull damage. 

 

Repairs began this AM - live feed as posted by theckenlady on the Carnival board:

 

 

[Saab4444]

2 hours ago, twangster said:

Tweet from Captain Johnny (Harmony)

 

 

 

Exactly what I said and what the Chief Engineer commented as “100% incorrect“....

Edited December 22, 2019 by Saab4444