Florida sues to reopen cruise ports

[Ken the cruiser]

Here we go. It's lawsuit time in Florida.

 

Florida Files Lawsuit Against CDC to Restart Cruise Industry In United States - Cruise Industry News | Cruise News

Edited April 8, 2021 by Ken the cruiser

[doneall50]

At least FL is trying! Other cruise ports should support this. 

[K.T.B.]

Disagree with this statement:

 

DeSantis said the federal government and the CDC had locked down the cruise industry for over a year and it was not reasonable.

 

It was definitely reasonable.  There was no way a cruise ship could've prevented "super spreader events" until there were vaccines.  HOWEVER, I agree now that people are getting vaccinated they can give an actual date as to when things can open rather than dragging it out.

[Jeremiah1212]

They're missing the point. The CDC wants a contingency plan to avoid a Diamond Princess, Celebrity Eclipse, et al situation where they are stuck at sea for weeks and no one would grant entry. Why is this so difficult to provide? DeSantis himself said he didn't want those HAL passengers dumped in his ports. 

 

No one saw COVID coming as aggressively as it did and there's nothing preventing a similar situation from happening again. 

[Orator]

Hopefully the case becomes moot before the court hears the arguments.

[Mike981]

13 minutes ago, Orator said:

Hopefully the case becomes moot before the court hears the arguments.

 

The way cases like this go through the courts, it could be years in the making.

[Orator]

2 minutes ago, Mike981 said:

 

The way cases like this go through the courts, it could be years in the making.

Hopefully that's not the case here.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jagoffee]

Good for him and the state of Florida.  
 

i continue to be amazed that people who have actually read the original no sail order extension and guidelines can defend it.  It was Bureaucratic B.S. when it was issued.  I suspect most people have never read the actual document.  To expect individual cruise lines to negotiate in good faith with the CDC with such a document is a waste of good resources.  An agency of our executive branch should never use their power in such a punitive way.  Let the CDC make their recommendations and then let us decide what actions we wish to take.  Or if the CDC wants to require vaccinations for people/crew to cruise and require a negative test to disembark, then say so and get out of the way.  Micromanaging at that level indicated in their document may be difficult to defend as it should be.
 

It is about time our judicial branch of government weighs in on the this topic.  We all know the legislated branch will not.  If the no sail order is legal and fair, then it can continue.  If not, it just be rewritten or rescinded.

 

In the mean time cruises will operate out of other ports shifting business to other countries.  Then people will return home after a negative test result, assuming the negative test requirement is not changed. So what has actually been accomplished?

 

Criticizing a state for taking the issue to our judicial branch of government for consideration is politics at it’s worse.  Does it really matter if you agree or disagree?  Isn’t that a right for all states and Citizens?  When did we become a county of “shut up” and take it? 
 

I will even defend those people that are looking for zero or little risk as it is their right.  Just like it is my right to live with risk.

[Baron Barracuda]

DeSantis would do a lot more good allowing cruise lines and other businesses to require proof of vaccination.

[Alakegirl]

Interesting discussion on this earlier thread, now closed but you can still access and read it

 

[harkinmr]

1 hour ago, K.T.B. said:

Disagree with this statement:

 

DeSantis said the federal government and the CDC had locked down the cruise industry for over a year and it was not reasonable.

 

It was definitely reasonable.  There was no way a cruise ship could've prevented "super spreader events" until there were vaccines.  HOWEVER, I agree now that people are getting vaccinated they can give an actual date as to when things can open rather than dragging it out.

This is more political theatre from the Governor.  As is being reported now by Florida news, the cruise lines were not even notified that the lawsuit was going to be filed.  I would think that the state would have sought input and cooperation from the cruise lines, even joining them in any filing.  Legal experts are not giving the lawsuit much of chance to succeed.  The complaint is attached.  The state is seeking injunctive relief and asking the court to declare the CSO unlawful; essentially an abuse of CDC's authority.  In the alternative, the state is asking that the cruise lines be able to start under "reasonable safety protocols".  Highly unlikely that a court would define what those are and would kick it back to the CDC.  The lines would be in the same position. 

1202000920_FLORIDALAWSUIT.pdf

Edited April 8, 2021 by harkinmr

[Jeremiah1212]

32 minutes ago, jagoffee said:

Let the CDC make their recommendations and then let us decide what actions we wish to take.  Or if the CDC wants to require vaccinations for people/crew to cruise and require a negative test to disembark, then say so and get out of the way.  Micromanaging at that level indicated in their document may be difficult to defend as it should be.
 

 

 

They had to micromanage because the cruise lines did nothing meaningful to respond to the initial NSO. That's why this entire technical order situation was created. The CDC had to step in since the cruise lines were willing to wait it out. Even the current CSO is very open ended. It tells them at high level what's needed, such as the agreements with port service providers. But it tells them to make the agreement. It doesn't give hard specifics points to hit because those micro level decisions are left to the ports and the cruiselines. 

 

The CDC and cruise lines negotiated and agreed upon several hundred pages of noro protocols, inspections, fees, training, etc. Why can't they do the same here? The cruise lines are actually hurting their chances of progress when they snub their nose at the CDC and say we're just not going to do it. What are they hiding? This is an industry that is filled with regulation, policy and procedures. This shouldn't be this difficult. CLIA is spearheading this effort because they are a lobbying organization that is working in the cruise lines best interest. This is all about money and convenience. It has nothing to do with passenger safety at this point. 

 

I hate to think what is going to happen if these Caribbean port sailings don't go off flawlessly but I haven't seen any indication of a real plan yet. Hand washing and cute safety videos won't cut it.

[Orator]

I predict that this thread will be closed if it becomes too political . IMHO some of the posts on both sides mentioning the Governor of Florida are leaning that way.

[PTC DAWG]

Florida sees the cruise business sailing away to other islands/ports, literally...I don’t blame them. 

[hcat]

Haven't  seen any paperwork or other  media articles. It will be interesting to see  how the standing (to sue) issue is resolved,  and what other entities join..  Other states with cruise ports, CLIA and other travel interested organizations...and cruise lines.

 

I agree that political posts and personal.invective may lead to thread being closed,  but it could be interesting  and a good source of  info, if it remains focused on the  lawsuit.

Edited April 8, 2021 by hcat

[nocl]

1 hour ago, Jeremiah1212 said:

 

They had to micromanage because the cruise lines did nothing meaningful to respond to the initial NSO. That's why this entire technical order situation was created. The CDC had to step in since the cruise lines were willing to wait it out. Even the current CSO is very open ended. It tells them at high level what's needed, such as the agreements with port service providers. But it tells them to make the agreement. It doesn't give hard specifics points to hit because those micro level decisions are left to the ports and the cruiselines. 

 

The CDC and cruise lines negotiated and agreed upon several hundred pages of noro protocols, inspections, fees, training, etc. Why can't they do the same here? The cruise lines are actually hurting their chances of progress when they snub their nose at the CDC and say we're just not going to do it. What are they hiding? This is an industry that is filled with regulation, policy and procedures. This shouldn't be this difficult. CLIA is spearheading this effort because they are a lobbying organization that is working in the cruise lines best interest. This is all about money and convenience. It has nothing to do with passenger safety at this point. 

 

I hate to think what is going to happen if these Caribbean port sailings don't go off flawlessly but I haven't seen any indication of a real plan yet. Hand washing and cute safety videos won't cut it.

Actually not so much negotiation with Noro. The regulations were enacted and the industry complied.

 

I suspect that the reasons why the cruise lines are not cooperating is because they do not want any more regulations in the US after the pandemic ends then they had prior to the pandemic.

 

Also if they were to submit a plan and get agreement from the CDC they would have to implement it as written, no fuzzy areas, no ability to change without getting approval from the CDC. The cruise lines would face legal liability if they did not implement the plan as written.

 

Remember in the early days of the outbreak when senior management refused to sign the documents needed to offload their crews through the US, while at the same time telling their crew members that the CDC would not let them offload crews through the US.

 

Cruise line senior management seem to be have an allergic reaction to anything that makes them legally liable for failure to implement.

[Ken the cruiser]

For those interested here's a more in-depth article which includes an interview with the Carnival CEO.

 

Florida sues CDC to allow cruises to resume U.S. sailings, industry asks to be treated like airlines (msn.com) 

[cruisemom42]

2 hours ago, jagoffee said:

 

i continue to be amazed that people who have actually read the original no sail order extension and guidelines can defend it.  It was Bureaucratic B.S. when it was issued.  I suspect most people have never read the actual document.  To expect individual cruise lines to negotiate in good faith with the CDC with such a document is a waste of good resources.  An agency of our executive branch should never use their power in such a punitive way.  Let the CDC make their recommendations and then let us decide what actions we wish to take.  Or if the CDC wants to require vaccinations for people/crew to cruise and require a negative test to disembark, then say so and get out of the way.  Micromanaging at that level indicated in their document may be difficult to defend as it should be.
 

 

I have read it several times.

 

Now let me ask you a question: Have you ever read the technical manual that governs the Vessel Sanitation Program overseen by the CDC and implemented by cruise ships?  That technical manual is nearly 300 pages long, yet I never see people here criticizing the lengths that the CDC goes to in order to ensure safe food handling on board ships in order to minimize outbreaks of noro and other types of foodborne illnesses. And I also assume you wouldn't want your local government authorities to go easy on restaurant cleanliness ratings either.

 

https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/vsp/docs/vsp_operations_manual_2018-508.pdf

 

So -- why does everyone think the CSO is so onerous? Because the cruise lines tell them it is. And why is that? Because they don't want to have to implement it. 

 

I'm sure these huge floating palaces with some 6,000 souls aboard have many specific technical manuals that must be followed for safe operations, from navigational procedures to bunkering fuel to engineering. They could manage this if they put forth the required effort. That they do not says a lot to me....

 

 

[Jeremiah1212]

25 minutes ago, nocl said:

Actually not so much negotiation with Noro. The regulations were enacted and the industry complied.

 

I suspect that the reasons why the cruise lines are not cooperating is because they do not want any more regulations in the US after the pandemic ends then they had prior to the pandemic.

 

Also if they were to submit a plan and get agreement from the CDC they would have to implement it as written, no fuzzy areas, no ability to change without getting approval from the CDC. The cruise lines would face legal liability if they did not implement the plan as written.

 

Remember in the early days of the outbreak when senior management refused to sign the documents needed to offload their crews through the US, while at the same time telling their crew members that the CDC would not let them offload crews through the US.

 

Cruise line senior management seem to be have an allergic reaction to anything that makes them legally liable for failure to implement.

 

I think they are absolutely delusional if industry leadership thinks somehow, someway, there won't be long lasting changes and ramification post-COVID. I'm afraid November 1st isn't going to be the day for confetti and fireworks that they are hoping for. 

[cruiserchuck]

It is looking bad in many states, and based on the prior waves, I am worried the surge will spread to other states that so far have not had a surge this time around.  Since unlimited, no test, travel is allowed in the continental US, I would think the surge is going to spread.

 

 

[hcat]

4 hours ago, jagoffee said:

Good for him and the state of Florida.  
 

i continue to be amazed that people who have actually read the original no sail order extension and guidelines can defend it.  It was Bureaucratic B.S. when it was issued.  I suspect most people have never read the actual document.  To expect individual cruise lines to negotiate in good faith with the CDC with such a document is a waste of good resources.  An agency of our executive branch should never use their power in such a punitive way.  Let the CDC make their recommendations and then let us decide what actions we wish to take.  Or if the CDC wants to require vaccinations for people/crew to cruise and require a negative test to disembark, then say so and get out of the way.  Micromanaging at that level indicated in their document may be difficult to defend as it should be.
 

It is about time our judicial branch of government weighs in on the this topic.  We all know the legislated branch will not.  If the no sail order is legal and fair, then it can continue.  If not, it just be rewritten or rescinded.

 

In the mean time cruises will operate out of other ports shifting business to other countries.  Then people will return home after a negative test result, assuming the negative test requirement is not changed. So what has actually been accomplished?

 

Criticizing a state for taking the issue to our judicial branch of government for consideration is politics at it’s worse.  Does it really matter if you agree or disagree?  Isn’t that a right for all states and Citizens?  When did we become a county of “shut up” and take it? 
 

I will even defend those people that are looking for zero or little risk as it is their right.  Just like it is my right to live with risk.

So many well stated points. Thank You!

 

The CDC, a fed admin  agency of the exec branch of gov,  has  issued very difficult (  & perhaps unattainable )  standards for  cruise  lines to  resume operations  from/ to  US ports based upon its perceived mandate 

 

 If the Courts (judicial branch) entertain the suit, they will decide if the standards  are appropriate. Great deference is usually  given to  admin agency rules/ regulations,  but there are review standards and limitations on power.

 

Let's leave it to the Courts,   while hoping for a non litigated  resolution that gets cruises moving safely...

 

 

[jagoffee]

3 hours ago, Jeremiah1212 said:

 

They had to micromanage because the cruise lines did nothing meaningful to respond to the initial NSO. That's why this entire technical order situation was created. The CDC had to step in since the cruise lines were willing to wait it out. Even the current CSO is very open ended. It tells them at high level what's needed, such as the agreements with port service providers. But it tells them to make the agreement. It doesn't give hard specifics points to hit because those micro level decisions are left to the ports and the cruiselines. 

 

The CDC and cruise lines negotiated and agreed upon several hundred pages of noro protocols, inspections, fees, training, etc. Why can't they do the same here? The cruise lines are actually hurting their chances of progress when they snub their nose at the CDC and say we're just not going to do it. What are they hiding? This is an industry that is filled with regulation, policy and procedures. This shouldn't be this difficult. CLIA is spearheading this effort because they are a lobbying organization that is working in the cruise lines best interest. This is all about money and convenience. It has nothing to do with passenger safety at this point. 

 

I hate to think what is going to happen if these Caribbean port sailings don't go off flawlessly but I haven't seen any indication of a real plan yet. Hand washing and cute safety videos won't cut it.

Just to clarify.  You read the original No Sail extension order and the “framework guidelines”?  I personally do not believe that it was even intended to lead to cruises restarting.  It was created to make sure that they would not restart unless undefined infection criteria results were obtained.  The CDC could not get the Presidential TAsk force to sign off on a blanket no Sail Order until November 1, 2021, so they created a totally unworkable document instead.   

1 hour ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

I have read it several times.

 

Now let me ask you a question: Have you ever read the technical manual that governs the Vessel Sanitation Program overseen by the CDC and implemented by cruise ships?  That technical manual is nearly 300 pages long, yet I never see people here criticizing the lengths that the CDC goes to in order to ensure safe food handling on board ships in order to minimize outbreaks of noro and other types of foodborne illnesses. And I also assume you wouldn't want your local government authorities to go easy on restaurant cleanliness ratings either.

 

https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/vsp/docs/vsp_operations_manual_2018-508.pdf

 

So -- why does everyone think the CSO is so onerous? Because the cruise lines tell them it is. And why is that? Because they don't want to have to implement it. 

 

I'm sure these huge floating palaces with some 6,000 souls aboard have many specific technical manuals that must be followed for safe operations, from navigational procedures to bunkering fuel to engineering. They could manage this if they put forth the required effort. That they do not says a lot to me....

 

 

If you have read the original document than you have an informed opinion of the document.  It is just different than mine.  No, I have not read the other document that you mentioned, so I will neither commend or criticize it.  
I have read the CDC original document, therefore I draw my opinion.  I still think it is Bureaucratic B.S., but I will admit that I have the same opinion of certain bills passed by Congress and some other government documents.  I worked in private industry and a lot of those documents are just plain absurd IMO and unworkable for the common person and/or business.  
I do accept the fact that others both admire and support the CDC document and actions.  I do not.

 

[wrk2cruise]

Does anybody know if anyone in the FL government is helping the cruise lines with contingency planning which the CDC is looking for to assure that a ship returning to a FL port has the necessary medical facilities available without overloading the healthcare system of the FLL/MIA,  Tampa or PC areas?   It would seem that this is an area where the state, cruise lines and CDC could cooperate to find an acceptable solution.

[Fouremco]

5 minutes ago, wrk2cruise said:

Does anybody know if anyone in the FL government is helping the cruise lines with contingency planning which the CDC is looking for to assure that a ship returning to a FL port has the necessary medical facilities available without overloading the healthcare system of the FLL/MIA,  Tampa or PC areas?   It would seem that this is an area where the state, cruise lines and CDC could cooperate to find an acceptable solution.

It would appear that Florida's government has opted for an adversarial approach in lieu of a cooperative one. 

[deliver42]

I wonder how DeSantis will handle this, after opening Pandora's box. He has said today that he would not make an exception to vaccination requirements to the cruise industry or anyone else Nobody doing business in Florida can require a Covid vaccine. If anyone thinks the CDC will allow cruising without everybody having been vaccinated is living in Fantasy Land.