Its time to move on from 2020

[atgood]

2 hours ago, Milwaukee Eight said:

Is anyone else still here?

 

M8

Yes.  I’m being a spectator today. 

[livingonthebeach]

34 minutes ago, John&LaLa said:

 

I'm in Miami, ground zero it seems. 90+% mask wesring everywhere I went today. Businesses seem to be demanding it. Apparently it will be 100% required on Wednesday from what I hear.

 

I'm in Miami-Dade County, our major announced today that most indoor venues will be closed again.  Masks are now required indoor and outdoors throughout the County.  If everyone would have followed protocols we would not have had a spike and a re-closure.  It's mostly young people that are not abiding by the rules.  😠

[A&L_Ont]

3 hours ago, boatseller said:

I truly feel bad for you and your countrymen.  In order to protect the low case rate, Canada will have to remain isolated for months or even years while we're pretty much back to normal. 

Don’t feel bad. In fact, we have some of your citizens entering Canada under false pretences to escape the states. As it stands right now there are very few Canadians who want to cross the border and want to see it remain closed for some time. 

 

3 hours ago, boatseller said:

Our cruise ports will be open soon and you will always be welcome in Florida...whenever you're allowed to leave.

As for cruising soon, that is a wait and see. I was told by someone, here on CC, that in March that Covid would be “behind us” by June.  We are now into July and the cruise lines are still repatriating their crew. Supposedly Bahamas Paradise Cruise lines is starting this month.  However, I would not call them a major player in the industry, not to mention they have yet to push away from the dock. 
 

As for being allowed to leave, we can. Europe is welcoming us as of July 1st.  We can also head to the Caribbean. We just need to follow their rules for travellers. We are far from isolated here.

[A&L_Ont]

2 hours ago, Milwaukee Eight said:

Is anyone else still here?

 

M8

Just caught up.
 

Busy enjoying the amazing weather up here. Little hot outside at 104F but the pool was 90 and amazing.

[Iamcruzin]

7 hours ago, cured said:

How do you social distance in a classroom? Most elementary school classes are upwards of 20 students.  Most typical sized classrooms with desks properly placed can accomodate 8 students. What happens to the other 12+.  Add to that the massive cuts state budgets have suffered due to the virus and that trickles down to the schools. Right now, my district is planning on a partial reopening.

 

Elementary school students will go to school 2 days a week, one day closed for cleaning, the last 2 days of the week the other half of the students will attend.  No bussing at all. Middle school and high school will only have students on campus for short times for necessary labs.  I don't know how working parents are going to accommodate, but it is what has to be done to comply with state and federal guidelines on reopening schools.

 

Here is one of many possible scenarios that could happen with opening schools too early. It is not that easy to just say send kids to school.

 

Ellison Mitchell

July 2 at 7:55 AM

🍏For those of you saying "If essential workers can work, teachers can work, and our kids need to be in school!" I get where you're coming from. I want you to imagine the first day of school.

🍏Kids will get on the bus. They will be packed together, because my district (like many) has ruled that it is too expensive and time-consuming to do staggered bussing. They will be excited to see their friends, and they will talk, share items, and do all the things they missed doing on the bus, and this will be great for their emotional health. Eventually some of them will take off their masks, because one or two kids didn't come with one to begin with, and who's scared of this thing anyway?

 

        And so, before 10am, you have had your first super-spreader event in the district. No, the kids may not all get sick, but a few of them will. A few of those will die, as we've seen in news reports. They probably won't be your child, so this does not matter to you. It is a sacrifice you were prepared to make.

🍏Kids will enter school. If this is done in a staggered manner, we will lose significant instructional time. Kids will sit at their desks, and if they are in a Title I school like mine where most parents can not afford to stay home and support kids during Digital Learning, we will have at least 80% of the population in the classroom. A classroom with truly socially distanced desks can seat about 8 people. Realistically, we will have 25-30 children packed together. Some of them will play with their masks or, if their parents are anti-mask, they will refuse to have those masks on.

🍏A teacher will now have to teach in a classroom where they are no longer allowed to have group activities, so vital for young learners, unless they are in a contactless digital format. Hopefully the school will have enough computers for those students without their own devices. Hopefully the teacher will be able to maneuver quickly enough to stop students from Snapchatting their friends, or logging on to any number of non-educational websites, so that they can do their lesson.

A teacher will also have to choose between instructing effectively and protecting themselves and the people they may care for at home. Proximity is key to classroom management. Social distancing is not compatible with it. Students who do not wear masks may see reduced teacher attention, because again, teachers are being asked to choose between their health and their effectiveness.

🍏Lunchtime arrives. Students have to take their masks off to eat. In my district, we will be eating in classrooms, and my school's windows do not open. Staggered lunches do not help once the masks are off and students are eating and talking and, because they miss their friends, clustering together. A teacher will have to choose between eating, separating students, and their health.

🍏Time to change classes. If students are the ones transitioning, instead of a teacher rotating between classrooms, we lose valuable instructional time to sanitizing. Do we have enough wipes and sprays to sanitize four or more times a day? Hopefully you donated some, because now a teacher may have to choose between their finances and *everyone's* health.

🍏Novel study time. Do we have enough books for 100+ middle schoolers? Don't make me laugh. Every student will need to sanitize before and after touching a book. You won't pay for ebooks and you won't pay for physical books, but we hope you will donate hand sanitizer.

🍏Chorus. Orchestra. Band. These teachers are talking about reducing class sizes to 80+. *Reducing* them. For their safety.

🍏Time to go home. Students get on the bus again. A second super-spreader event occurs across the district.

🍏Now, let's talk about how things go after Day 1:

A child tests positive for COVID-19. The parents fear retaliation from peers and do not report it to the school; they just keep their child at home and hope it blows over.

A child is sick with fever. A parent gives them Tylenol and sends them to school.

A child who interacted with the child whose parents did not report tests positive and parents report this. Students and teachers that interacted with the child have to quarantine for 14 days. That's 14 days of the Digital Learning we were trying to avoid in the first place. In middle school, if a teacher tests positive, that will mean 100+ kids are staying home with parents, and all of their teachers, too. This will happen again and again. All of the promised consistency, routine, structure, everything you wanted for your children, is gone, and you are not prepared to help them with DL.

A child in a community with high COVID-19 exposure becomes sick with MIS-C. More children contract MIS-C. This was a sacrifice you did not realize you were making, but it does not affect your child, so it does not concern you.

🍏Now for the community spread.

The virus will find many opportunities to flourish in a school, no matter how carefully the teachers and staff strive to curb it. The resources simply are not being given to them. Children will spread the virus to parents, siblings, grandparents (especially in multigenerational homes), and inevitably, people who shop and work outside of their homes. The spike we see now, that began in June, will pale in comparison to what follows.

🍏And some teachers, nurses, custodians, and principals will die. But that's a footnote to you; what about the learning outcomes? The academic gains?

Well? What will those be?

--Ellison Mitchell

I have no dog in this race as my children are adults. If I had school age children at home I would be considering homeschooling, which is unheard of on Long Island. I don't think it's ideal but at least there is a structured program in place. All of this uncertainty on how to conduct education in a classroom setting is very disrupting.   

[MJSailors]

    Latest news in NY re: schools reopening.

Each of the 700 school districts in the state and NYC are required to send a plan for the reopening of their schools to Albany.. This is a smart decision as each district knows what is feasible for a September reopening given each district’ s financial resources, staffing and demographics.

    instead of implementation a one-plan- fits-all approach through the Dept. of Education, reopening plans are put into the hands of those educational leaders  in the individual communities.

  The caveat is though that having  viable plans state- wide is no guarantee that the schools will open in September. Reopening schools  is a complex  issue that requires pragmatic thought and action. The  health  and safety of the school staffs and students is to  

be the one priority that should  drive the decision to resume school in September.

[momofmab]

Very difficult for the many, many dual-working (& single working) parent households to shift to homeschooling - or to even shift to supervising their kids for virtual learning.

 

I applaud the school systems that are working diligently to come up with plans to safely get kids back into the classroom - even though it won't be in the same fashion as last Fall.  I have a rising senior - she doesn't need me to to teach her classroom material (and I've actually loved having her home) but I have seen the affect on her and her peers from the learning isolation.   Since the quarantine, way too many kids have simply dropped out of the system - no way to check on them on daily basis.  Virtual learning was an acceptable stop-gap measure, but not a viable long term solution.

 

Wait - isn't this a cruise website? 😄

[bigrednole]

17 hours ago, cured said:

How do you social distance in a classroom? Most elementary school classes are upwards of 20 students.  Most typical sized classrooms with desks properly placed can accomodate 8 students. What happens to the other 12+.  Add to that the massive cuts state budgets have suffered due to the virus and that trickles down to the schools. Right now, my district is planning on a partial reopening.

 

Elementary school students will go to school 2 days a week, one day closed for cleaning, the last 2 days of the week the other half of the students will attend.  No bussing at all. Middle school and high school will only have students on campus for short times for necessary labs.  I don't know how working parents are going to accommodate, but it is what has to be done to comply with state and federal guidelines on reopening schools.

 

Here is one of many possible scenarios that could happen with opening schools too early. It is not that easy to just say send kids to school.

 

Ellison Mitchell

July 2 at 7:55 AM

🍏For those of you saying "If essential workers can work, teachers can work, and our kids need to be in school!" I get where you're coming from. I want you to imagine the first day of school.

🍏Kids will get on the bus. They will be packed together, because my district (like many) has ruled that it is too expensive and time-consuming to do staggered bussing. They will be excited to see their friends, and they will talk, share items, and do all the things they missed doing on the bus, and this will be great for their emotional health. Eventually some of them will take off their masks, because one or two kids didn't come with one to begin with, and who's scared of this thing anyway?

 

        And so, before 10am, you have had your first super-spreader event in the district. No, the kids may not all get sick, but a few of them will. A few of those will die, as we've seen in news reports. They probably won't be your child, so this does not matter to you. It is a sacrifice you were prepared to make.

🍏Kids will enter school. If this is done in a staggered manner, we will lose significant instructional time. Kids will sit at their desks, and if they are in a Title I school like mine where most parents can not afford to stay home and support kids during Digital Learning, we will have at least 80% of the population in the classroom. A classroom with truly socially distanced desks can seat about 8 people. Realistically, we will have 25-30 children packed together. Some of them will play with their masks or, if their parents are anti-mask, they will refuse to have those masks on.

🍏A teacher will now have to teach in a classroom where they are no longer allowed to have group activities, so vital for young learners, unless they are in a contactless digital format. Hopefully the school will have enough computers for those students without their own devices. Hopefully the teacher will be able to maneuver quickly enough to stop students from Snapchatting their friends, or logging on to any number of non-educational websites, so that they can do their lesson.

A teacher will also have to choose between instructing effectively and protecting themselves and the people they may care for at home. Proximity is key to classroom management. Social distancing is not compatible with it. Students who do not wear masks may see reduced teacher attention, because again, teachers are being asked to choose between their health and their effectiveness.

🍏Lunchtime arrives. Students have to take their masks off to eat. In my district, we will be eating in classrooms, and my school's windows do not open. Staggered lunches do not help once the masks are off and students are eating and talking and, because they miss their friends, clustering together. A teacher will have to choose between eating, separating students, and their health.

🍏Time to change classes. If students are the ones transitioning, instead of a teacher rotating between classrooms, we lose valuable instructional time to sanitizing. Do we have enough wipes and sprays to sanitize four or more times a day? Hopefully you donated some, because now a teacher may have to choose between their finances and *everyone's* health.

🍏Novel study time. Do we have enough books for 100+ middle schoolers? Don't make me laugh. Every student will need to sanitize before and after touching a book. You won't pay for ebooks and you won't pay for physical books, but we hope you will donate hand sanitizer.

🍏Chorus. Orchestra. Band. These teachers are talking about reducing class sizes to 80+. *Reducing* them. For their safety.

🍏Time to go home. Students get on the bus again. A second super-spreader event occurs across the district.

🍏Now, let's talk about how things go after Day 1:

A child tests positive for COVID-19. The parents fear retaliation from peers and do not report it to the school; they just keep their child at home and hope it blows over.

A child is sick with fever. A parent gives them Tylenol and sends them to school.

A child who interacted with the child whose parents did not report tests positive and parents report this. Students and teachers that interacted with the child have to quarantine for 14 days. That's 14 days of the Digital Learning we were trying to avoid in the first place. In middle school, if a teacher tests positive, that will mean 100+ kids are staying home with parents, and all of their teachers, too. This will happen again and again. All of the promised consistency, routine, structure, everything you wanted for your children, is gone, and you are not prepared to help them with DL.

A child in a community with high COVID-19 exposure becomes sick with MIS-C. More children contract MIS-C. This was a sacrifice you did not realize you were making, but it does not affect your child, so it does not concern you.

🍏Now for the community spread.

The virus will find many opportunities to flourish in a school, no matter how carefully the teachers and staff strive to curb it. The resources simply are not being given to them. Children will spread the virus to parents, siblings, grandparents (especially in multigenerational homes), and inevitably, people who shop and work outside of their homes. The spike we see now, that began in June, will pale in comparison to what follows.

🍏And some teachers, nurses, custodians, and principals will die. But that's a footnote to you; what about the learning outcomes? The academic gains?

Well? What will those be?

--Ellison Mitchell

My school district stopped waiting for the Governor. They went into the on 1-week, remote 2-weeks approach. The kids will rotate in the 1-week and then remote learning the next 2 weeks. This cuts class sizes to ~8-12 students. Parents/kids can opt out of rotating in on the 1-week without any questions. Attendance will be required, work graded accordingly. The buses are limited to 1-person per seat, but still have to maintain 6-feet apart. This will limit buses to only about 11 kids vs the max of 72. I would only be guessing, but they are probably around 45-50 on a bus. Siblings would be permitted to sit together and would be on the same 1-week rotations in school. 

 

My daughter is exploring the Virtual Academy option for the first half of the year. She will do all online education through the county school board. It is safer and many parents in our neighborhood are getting more onboard with it. It is almost to the point that 3-4 of them are going to get together daily for school at rotating houses. 

[bouhunter]

I think we're looking at 1-2 years of mask mandates and fear mongering.  On land.  It does not look good for cruising for a long time.  Good luck everyone.  We've moved all of ours to late 2021 and 2022, and are ready and willing to lose the minimal onboard deposits on those if cruising is restrictive and no fun at that time.  One thing I know, no money to any cruise line for at least a year.  I feel bad for them, don't envy the decision makers.  Actually surprised more of them haven't just given up and left.

Edited July 7, 2020 by bouhunter

[Iamcruzin]

1 hour ago, momofmab said:

Very difficult for the many, many dual-working (& single working) parent households to shift to homeschooling - or to even shift to supervising their kids for virtual learning.

 

I applaud the school systems that are working diligently to come up with plans to safely get kids back into the classroom - even though it won't be in the same fashion as last Fall.  I have a rising senior - she doesn't need me to to teach her classroom material (and I've actually loved having her home) but I have seen the affect on her and her peers from the learning isolation.   Since the quarantine, way too many kids have simply dropped out of the system - no way to check on them on daily basis.  Virtual learning was an acceptable stop-gap measure, but not a viable long term solution.

 

Wait - isn't this a cruise website? 😄

I'll help you out. If you homeschool you can plan a cruise with your family during off peak seasons when Kid's sail free. Also if you purchase Voom your kids can continue their education at sea if there is a Covid outbreak and the ship is in quarantine. 

Edited July 7, 2020 by Iamcruzin

[zonacruiser25]

Glad to see some movement by Royal to open up about plane they have to re-open.  I hope we will see more details soon from Royal with plane we can see and discuss

 

https://www.cruisehive.com/royal-caribbean-and-norwegian-cruise-line-team-up-for-new-health-protocols/40544

[MJSailors]

But,here’s an idea-

     School districts are making significant changes to the classroom experience ( 8-12 students in a room as opposed to 20+,distance learning etc) for hundreds of students in a school building.

       Cruise lines will need to also make significant changes for the hundreds of passengers on a ship. Obviously,there will be some drastic changes to the cruise experience.

      The question remains,will cruise customers welcome such changes and be glad for any form of a cruise,or will they choose another form of vacation ?

[atgood]

In the grand scheme of things, how many different types/brands of the CV19 test are there?   Has anything been done to confirm their accuracy?  It’s something to consider. 
 

I’ve read several stories over the past few months of false positives and false negatives.  

[HBE4]

19 hours ago, Milwaukee Eight said:

I’m just glad we moved on from all Florida Hospitals overrun. 😇

 

M8

 

I'm glad we moved on from the multiple posts of 47 NYPD cars burned which is even more off-topic than how covid-19 in FL affects cruising. 😉

 

18 hours ago, ReneeFLL said:

Where's Kim's mask? 😱 😷

 

Some people still don't seem to get it. Although I do like the pic.

 

17 hours ago, Milwaukee Eight said:

Is anyone else still here?

 

M8

 

14 hours ago, A&L_Ont said:

Just caught up.
 

Busy enjoying the amazing weather up here. Little hot outside at 104F but the pool was 90 and amazing.

 

Same here. Been busy enjoying a relaxing week in NY Fingers Lakes wine country. With all the wine tasting, craft brews, live music, boating, swimming, dockside dining, hiking and nightly firepits, I'm not sure I'll miss cruising.

 

I hear a kayak calling my name.....gotta go.

 

Edited July 7, 2020 by HBE4

[Milwaukee Eight]

4 minutes ago, HBE4 said:

I'm glad we moved on from the multiple posts of 47 NYPD cars burned which is even more off-topic than how covid-19 in FL affects cruising. 😉

I agree. I’m good until someone posts/links to start it. 😇

 

I got a lot of links and facts I could post about this weekend activities. 😇

 

Peace

 

M8

[Milwaukee Eight]

9 minutes ago, HBE4 said:

Some people still don't seem to get it. Although I do like the pic.

Very nice lady. Saturday/Monday her days.  She and many are in a group call Rockatenders that travel the country to tend bar at Concerts and Events. They are not seeing much action as the result of CV19. 
 

M8

[Baron Barracuda]

Fain and Del Rio just gave lengthy interview on CNBC.  Stated panel has been at work for two months.  Cruise lines and panel working "warmly" with CDC.  Their response to questions about masks, buffet and dealing with covid passengers was basically "we're interested in seeing what the panel comes up with".  Emphasized RCL still looking to provide a "marvelous" cruising experience, but doing it in  a healthy way.  Was not directly asked about re-start date but Fain said "we actually have a while because covid continues to expand so it will be  a while before we can come back into service.so we're taking advantage of that time to develop the very best kinds of protocols".  Doesn't sound optimistic for this fall.  Del Rio was asked about cash position.  He replied NCL was ok through 2021 but hopes to re-start much earlier than that. 

 

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2020/07/07/royal-caribbean-and-norwegian-to-partner-on-health-protocols-for-cruises.html

Edited July 7, 2020 by Baron Barracuda

[HBE4]

1 hour ago, Milwaukee Eight said:

I agree. I’m good until someone posts/links to start it. 😇

 

I got a lot of links and facts I could post about this weekend activities. 😇

 

Peace

 

M8

 

Lol, normally I would say yes, please post as I've been on a news blackout the past 9 days while enjoying vacation. But I don't want to be the reason another thread is deleted. I'll catch up on my own time.

 

Enjoy!

 

[Milwaukee Eight]

10 minutes ago, HBE4 said:

 

Lol, normally I would say yes, please post as I've been on a news blackout the past 9 days while enjoying vacation. But I don't want to be the reason another thread is deleted. I'll catch up on my own time.

 

Enjoy!

 

Me either. I’m good to be quiet. Just not going to stand for opinions as facts. Too much of that going on. It’s nice not to hear it here too. 
 

Peace

 

M8

[bobmacliberty]

2 hours ago, HBE4 said:

Same here. Been busy enjoying a relaxing week in NY Fingers Lakes wine country.

 

Bully Hill?  Love that place and the Taylor Wine story.

[A&L_Ont]

2 hours ago, HBE4 said:

Same here. Been busy enjoying a relaxing week in NY Fingers Lakes wine country. With all the wine tasting, craft brews, live music, boating, swimming, dockside dining, hiking and nightly firepits, I'm not sure I'll miss cruising.

 

Please stop in at Wakin's Glen International and pay tribute for me. 

[fisherguy]

2 hours ago, atgood said:

In the grand scheme of things, how many different types/brands of the CV19 test are there?   Has anything been done to confirm their accuracy?  It’s something to consider. 
 

I’ve read several stories over the past few months of false positives and false negatives.  

This was what was explained to us by our Health Officer (FWIW).  So these are not my opinions. 

 

We were told about 2 main categories of tests related to Covid19.  Those that detect the virus and those that detect the anti bodies produced by people after getting and recovering from the virus (serology testing).  Serology testing is usually done later on and its main purpose is to find out the % of the population that had been infected with Covid19.  This testing is even more important with Covid19 because of the greater prevalence of Asymptomatic infections.  

 

Tests for the virus itself other than variations on how they are administered and turn around times are really not that different in principle.  The issue with false negatives occurs when there is not enough virus in the samples to detect the virus.  The error rate is much more of a problem with testing asymptomatic carriers.  For those that show mild to severe symptoms, the tests are fairly accurate.  Asymptomatic carriers need to be tested multiple times, as it may take a few days for the virus to show up in the samples.  Earlier on, we had a severe shortage of tests kits and were only able to test those that needed to be hospitalized.  Those that had symptoms were told to go home and quarantine.  Now, anyone can get tested if they want.

 

False positives are more of an issue when testing those that have had the virus and are being tested to insure that they have recovered and are Covid19 free.  Sometimes even when patients are fully recovered and are no longer shedding the virus, they still have traces of the RNA in their system which will produce a positive test.

 

I believe that in the absence of a vaccine or effective treatment, developing faster more reliable testing can be another tool we can use to help fight the virus and get our lives closer to normal again.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[HBE4]

2 hours ago, bobmacliberty said:

 

Bully Hill?  Love that place and the Taylor Wine story.

 

I'm on Seneca lake. But the Heron Hill tasting room is closed so I have to head over the way. I'll check it out. Thanks for the tip!

 

1 hour ago, A&L_Ont said:

 

Please stop in at Wakin's Glen International and pay tribute for me. 

 

I already hiked the gorge but will head back that way for supplies so I will! 

 

[fisherguy]

6 hours ago, zonacruiser25 said:

Glad to see some movement by Royal to open up about plane they have to re-open.  I hope we will see more details soon from Royal with plane we can see and discuss

 

https://www.cruisehive.com/royal-caribbean-and-norwegian-cruise-line-team-up-for-new-health-protocols/40544

That's certainly positive and I'm happy to see that the cruise lines are more proactive in finding solutions.

 

Just thinking about it though with how things are with Covid19 globally, international travel may still be restricted in the foreseeable future.  I envision the bigger ships being utilized with half the capacity to allow the ability for Social distancing.  Cruises may be local with local ports and local crew (similar to cruising in Hawaii out of the Norwegian Pride).  Facilities within the ships would be run with the same protocols as how restaurants and hotels on land are now being run now with Covid19.  Mask use, Social distancing (where possible) and hand washing will be required.  The issue of crowded crew quarters also need to be addressed with frequent testing for Covid19 and limitations on the crew's movements during changeover and port days.  

 

[time4u2go]

13 minutes ago, fisherguy said:

That's certainly positive and I'm happy to see that the cruise lines are more proactive in finding solutions.

 

Just thinking about it though with how things are with Covid19 globally, international travel may still be restricted in the foreseeable future.  I envision the bigger ships being utilized with half the capacity to allow the ability for Social distancing.  Cruises may be local with local ports and local crew (similar to cruising in Hawaii out of the Norwegian Pride).  Facilities within the ships would be run with the same protocols as how restaurants and hotels on land are now being run now with Covid19.  Mask use, Social distancing (where possible) and hand washing will be required.  The issue of crowded crew quarters also need to be addressed with frequent testing for Covid19 and limitations on the crew's movements during changeover and port days.  

 

PVSA won't allow local ports and local crew. Unless you mean local to countries other than the US.

Edited July 7, 2020 by time4u2go