Mandate the vaccine and establish a realistic start date

[ace2542]

21 minutes ago, livingonthebeach said:

 

We don't hear about SARS, MERS, EBOLA, H1N1, ZIKA, etc. anymore so it appears to be possible. 

Yeah but they were never everywhere in the world all at once each creating a global pandemic that shut down whole countries?. Apart from h1n1 maybe. Though I don't ever remember hearing anything about H1N1 on the same scale as this. I know it was a concern but I don't remember anything like this.

[livingonthebeach]

1 minute ago, ace2542 said:

Yeah but they were never everywhere in the world all at once each creating a global pandemic that shut down whole countries?. Apart from h1n1 maybe. Though I don't ever remember hearing anything about H1N1 on the same scale as this. I know it was a concern but I don't remember anything like this.

 

True, they were not everywhere, however, smallpox was and it is now eradicated.  Cholera and the bubonic plague were pandemics as well and they don't exist anymore. 

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, ace2542 said:

Plenty if you stop their unemployment benefits or dole as it is called. 

Well, considering that the UK "jobseekers allowance" even for a couple, is less than the internationally mandated minimum wage for seafarers (and those seafarers qualify for overtime above the minimum, and I'm talking about cruise ship crew), and that wage is not limited to 182 days like JSA, I don't see how dropping the dole would entice more people to work on ships than currently.  In most states, the unemployment is also less than they would make at sea, and also limited in either time or total money, or both.  And, there are still not a lot of applicants for US flag crew jobs, let alone foreign ones.

[leisuretraveler223]

Wow, there's a lot to unpack in this thread, and I'll confess I didn't read all NINE pages, mostly because I don't hate myself.  But I did want to add one thing to the original subject about mandating vaccines.

 

Currently, there are NO "approved" vaccines for sars-cov-19.  That's right, there is not a single vaccine approved for use against Covid 19.  Pfizer and Moderna vaccines have "emergency use authorization", which means they are allowed to be administered because of the current pandemic emergency circumstances, but are not officially "Approved".

 

Now, a private company might go with the "we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone", and say they aren't allowing people to board.  But they also know it's a tricky line to navigate to require people to accept something that hasn't been "approved" yet.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm a pediatrician and an ARDENT vaccine advocate. I'm also thankful to have already received my two doses.  But I hear this conversation a lot.  Cruise lines should mandate it. Employers should mandate it.  The Federal or State Governments should mandate it.   It's just not realistic to MANDATE something that hasn't actually met the criteria to be "approved".

[time4u2go]

8 minutes ago, leisuretraveler223 said:

Wow, there's a lot to unpack in this thread, and I'll confess I didn't read all NINE pages, mostly because I don't hate myself.  But I did want to add one thing to the original subject about mandating vaccines.

 

Currently, there are NO "approved" vaccines for sars-cov-19.  That's right, there is not a single vaccine approved for use against Covid 19.  Pfizer and Moderna vaccines have "emergency use authorization", which means they are allowed to be administered because of the current pandemic emergency circumstances, but are not officially "Approved".

 

Now, a private company might go with the "we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone", and say they aren't allowing people to board.  But they also know it's a tricky line to navigate to require people to accept something that hasn't been "approved" yet.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm a pediatrician and an ARDENT vaccine advocate. I'm also thankful to have already received my two doses.  But I hear this conversation a lot.  Cruise lines should mandate it. Employers should mandate it.  The Federal or State Governments should mandate it.   It's just not realistic to MANDATE something that hasn't actually met the criteria to be "approved".

How long might it take to become officially approved? Might that not happen before cruising resumes?

[leisuretraveler223]

8 minutes ago, time4u2go said:

How long might it take to become officially approved? Might that not happen before cruising resumes?

I don't think there is a big focus on official approval right now. The concentration is on more emergency authorization use for other vaccines, as well as expanding availability, while also conducting studies to expand eligibility (kids).

 

Official approval might not come for a year or more.

[ace2542]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

Well, considering that the UK "jobseekers allowance" even for a couple, is less than the internationally mandated minimum wage for seafarers (and those seafarers qualify for overtime above the minimum, and I'm talking about cruise ship crew), and that wage is not limited to 182 days like JSA, I don't see how dropping the dole would entice more people to work on ships than currently.  In most states, the unemployment is also less than they would make at sea, and also limited in either time or total money, or both.  And, there are still not a lot of applicants for US flag crew jobs, let alone foreign ones.

You get 74 pounds per week or something very close to that to live on unless you claim your housing benefit on top of that. And that housing benefit goes to your landlord directly.

 

There are different type the 182 is not so called means tested. After that you move onto income based JSA which is like the same 73 per week etc etc.

Edited January 30, 2021 by ace2542

[Suncoastsailors]

31 minutes ago, leisuretraveler223 said:

Wow, there's a lot to unpack in this thread, and I'll confess I didn't read all NINE pages, mostly because I don't hate myself.  But I did want to add one thing to the original subject about mandating vaccines.

 

Currently, there are NO "approved" vaccines for sars-cov-19.  That's right, there is not a single vaccine approved for use against Covid 19.  Pfizer and Moderna vaccines have "emergency use authorization", which means they are allowed to be administered because of the current pandemic emergency circumstances, but are not officially "Approved".

 

Now, a private company might go with the "we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone", and say they aren't allowing people to board.  But they also know it's a tricky line to navigate to require people to accept something that hasn't been "approved" yet.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm a pediatrician and an ARDENT vaccine advocate. I'm also thankful to have already received my two doses.  But I hear this conversation a lot.  Cruise lines should mandate it. Employers should mandate it.  The Federal or State Governments should mandate it.   It's just not realistic to MANDATE something that hasn't actually met the criteria to be "approved".

I am not purposing cruise line MANDATE you to have the vaccine. Only they they require vaccination to join the cruise. Possible exceptions could be made small children. If you set a date say July 1st or Aug 1st 2021. Everyone has time to prepare. Cruise lines could seek government approval. Staff could be vaccinated, protocols put in place and those who want to cruise can get in line for the vaccine. They are allowing vaccinated local nursing staff to attend the Super Bowl. Approved or emergency use is not the issue. Set a sail date based on data. Presently 1.2 million vaccines per day given. Those who disagree can wait until the rules change.  

[cruiseguy1016]

20 hours ago, Ocean Boy said:

That is the point of requiring 100% vaccinations on the ships. If anyone does come down with the infection they shouldn't need hospitalisation and the only people who possibly might be exposed are vaccinated.

 

There are not many controlled populations in this world where you can get a 100% vaccination rate. A cruise ship is one of them.

 

People are going to lie about being vaccinated (does the term "Service Animal" ring a bell?). Where is the proof going to come from? I've been vaccinated. I have a piece of paper that "proves" it. That piece of paper would be very easy to forge.

[firefly333]

I just wish they would make it easier to sign up. Every day here something is said to make it harder. Now they are all excited about a  new scan linked to the individual appointment. I guess so the people sent the link are the only ones using it.

 

I never used a scan program. I doubt I'm the only senior who thinks scanning a code makes it harder not easier to sign up. 

[Suncoastsailors]

4 minutes ago, cruiseguy1016 said:

 

People are going to lie about being vaccinated (does the term "Service Animal" ring a bell?). Where is the proof going to come from? I've been vaccinated. I have a piece of paper that "proves" it. That piece of paper would be very easy to forge.

 

4 minutes ago, cruiseguy1016 said:

 

People are going to lie about being vaccinated (does the term "Service Animal" ring a bell?). Where is the proof going to come from? I've been vaccinated. I have a piece of paper that "proves" it. That piece of paper would be very easy to forge.

How many would go to that extent to cruise. You need expiration date, lot number, date etc. on your paper. Even if a few people did cheat it would still be safe for those who follow the rules. Severe consequences could follow if you cheat and get caught. It would be easy to call the vaccination facility to verify. 

[livingonthebeach]

22 minutes ago, Suncoastsailors said:

I am not purposing cruise line MANDATE you to have the vaccine. Only they they require vaccination to join the cruise. Possible exceptions could be made small children. If you set a date say July 1st or Aug 1st 2021. Everyone has time to prepare. Cruise lines could seek government approval. Staff could be vaccinated, protocols put in place and those who want to cruise can get in line for the vaccine. They are allowing vaccinated local nursing staff to attend the Super Bowl. Approved or emergency use is not the issue. Set a sail date based on data. Presently 1.2 million vaccines per day given. Those who disagree can wait until the rules change.  

 

The CDC has to issue a sailing certificate for each ship that restarts.  One of the requirements to obtain a certificate is the test cruises.  There are no test cruises so far.  July / August seems optimistic. 

[cruiseguy1016]

2 minutes ago, Suncoastsailors said:

 

How many would go to that extent to cruise. You need expiration date, lot number, date etc. on your paper. Even if a few people did cheat it would still be safe for those who follow the rules. Severe consequences could follow if you cheat and get caught. It would be easy to call the vaccination facility to verify. 

 

My guess is the form showing that you had the vaccine is different in every state/county. My wife and I have both been vaccinated in the same county but at different locations. Our documentation papers are different. She has the date hand written with a sticker for the lot number. On mine, the dates and lot numbers are both just written by hand.  Anyone can make a fake form and write any dates and lot number they want. The cruise lines will not take the time and effort to verify the authenticity of every form.

[Iamcruzin]

14 hours ago, smokeybandit said:

RC is not a public health agency.

Neither are retailers but they still are allowed to mandate wearing a mask if you want to enter the store.

[Suncoastsailors]

2 minutes ago, cruiseguy1016 said:

 

My guess is the form showing that you had the vaccine is different in every state/county. My wife and I have both been vaccinated in the same county but at different locations. Our documentation papers are different. She has the date hand written with a sticker for the lot number. On mine, the dates and lot numbers are both just written by hand.  Anyone can make a fake form and write any dates and lot number they want. The cruise lines will not take the time and effort to verify the authenticity of every form.

Every comment is so negative. What about a life time cruising ban if you get caught? 

 

3 minutes ago, cruiseguy1016 said:

 

My guess is the form showing that you had the vaccine is different in every state/county. My wife and I have both been vaccinated in the same county but at different locations. Our documentation papers are different. She has the date hand written with a sticker for the lot number. On mine, the dates and lot numbers are both just written by hand.  Anyone can make a fake form and write any dates and lot number they want. The cruise lines will not take the time and effort to verify the authenticity of every form.

July1st and Aug 1st are of course used just as an example. 

[Ocean Boy]

16 minutes ago, cruiseguy1016 said:

 

My guess is the form showing that you had the vaccine is different in every state/county. My wife and I have both been vaccinated in the same county but at different locations. Our documentation papers are different. She has the date hand written with a sticker for the lot number. On mine, the dates and lot numbers are both just written by hand.  Anyone can make a fake form and write any dates and lot number they want. The cruise lines will not take the time and effort to verify the authenticity of every form.

Then I guess we better just shut everything down and keep it that way because the world is full of lying, cheating, untrustworthy humans.🙄

 

I wouldn't lie to get on a cruise ship. It is hardly even close to important enough to me to risk my integrity.

[firefly333]

3 minutes ago, Ocean Boy said:

 

 

I wouldn't lie to get on a cruise ship. It is hardly even close to important enough yo me to risk my integrity.

The old health form, people lied all the time. Someone has a cold and lies and says oh I have allergies, rather than not get on the ship. Many would forfeit their cruisefare. Someone went kinda with us I'm sure she lied, because I came down with a cold. I was doing a b2b. Uggh.

 

There are some out there who would lie without batting a eye. I only have the 1st shot, no appointment for 2nd shot. Its hand written on a card. I dont see these cards working. 

[Ocean Boy]

9 minutes ago, firefly333 said:

The old health form, people lied all the time. Someone has a cold and lies and says oh I have allergies, rather than not get on the ship. Many would forfeit their cruisefare. Someone went kinda with us I'm sure she lied, because I came down with a cold. I was doing a b2b. Uggh.

 

There are some out there who would lie without batting a eye. I only have the 1st shot, no appointment for 2nd shot. Its hand written on a card. I dont see these cards working. 

So come up with a viable plan. I don't know how anyone can look at the Diamond Princess and then have any interest in getting on a non-vaccinated ship.

 

I would like to ask how stupid can people be. However, unfortunately I know the answer to the question.

[cured]

2 hours ago, ace2542 said:

Yeah but they were never everywhere in the world all at once each creating a global pandemic that shut down whole countries?. Apart from h1n1 maybe. Though I don't ever remember hearing anything about H1N1 on the same scale as this. I know it was a concern but I don't remember anything like this.

 

What about the Spanish Flu? 

It was a similar global pandemic. 103 years later we are not masking up to protect us from the Spanish Flu. 

 

Or the bubonic plague? While it killed millions during a global pandemic back in the middle ages, it is no longer a feared disease.

 

With proper medication and medical knowledge every pandemic has had an end.

 

The scientists in my family (one a biochem engineer directly working on one of the mRNA vaccines) are frustrated with those that choose not to mask up, social distance, vaccinate and let the virus run its course as they are prolonging the end of it. While the majority will survive without any incident, they are providing themselves as hosts to the virus to allow it to mutate to possible more dangerous strains.  If there are no hosts, there is no chance for the virus to spread and mutate and it will die out.

[cured]

42 minutes ago, cruiseguy1016 said:

 

People are going to lie about being vaccinated (does the term "Service Animal" ring a bell?). Where is the proof going to come from? I've been vaccinated. I have a piece of paper that "proves" it. That piece of paper would be very easy to forge.

Clear, that company that allows you to go to the front of the line in airplane security, is working on expanding their ClearHealth app.  From what I understand, it won't show your medical history to anyone but it will flash green if your health provider uploaded confirmation of vaccination. It is still being developed so could change, but this has been reported by local news sources and pharma companies as being in the works for vaccine tracking.

[Sail n Snow]

12 minutes ago, Ocean Boy said:

So come up with a viable plan.

It’s on its way. It will just take time for it to be adopted...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/01/14/microsoft-salesforce-and-oracle-working-on-covid-vaccination-passport.html

Edited January 30, 2021 by Sail n Snow

[leisuretraveler223]

51 minutes ago, Suncoastsailors said:

I am not purposing cruise line MANDATE you to have the vaccine. Only they they require vaccination to join the cruise. 

Really?  Literally NO ONE was thinking "hey, cruise lines should just mandate everyone get a vaccine even if they're not planning on cruising".  That is utterly nonsensical.

 

But for a cruise line, or any private entity to require someone to do something that is in fact NOT approved is opening themselves up to potential liability that no underwrite would touch with a ten foot pole.  The problem would come up not in those who refused, but in those that got it and then could argue culpability on the part of the cruise line for any impact the immunization might have.  No entity, government, public or private is going to require something not approved.

[leisuretraveler223]

24 minutes ago, Iamcruzin said:

Neither are retailers but they still are allowed to mandate wearing a mask if you want to enter the store.

Masks have been approved for universal use. The Covid-19 vaccine is not approved.

[molly361]

1 minute ago, Sail n Snow said:

It’s on its way. It will just take time for it to be adopted...

https://amp.ft.com/content/cf971639-3836-4c2b-93f6-622d4e0846ad
 

 

You have to subscribe to access your link.  No thanks

[Sail n Snow]

Just now, molly361 said:

You have to subscribe to access your link.  No thanks

I found another version

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/01/14/microsoft-salesforce-and-oracle-working-on-covid-vaccination-passport.html