Will you cruise if vaccination is mandatory in order to board?

[wowzz]

58 minutes ago, 2wheelin said:

Science is interpretation of facts. Several scientists may interpret the same set of facts differently. I know this because I spent over 40 years in medical research. You have to look deeper to see how those “facts” were arrived at. So yes, science is debatable and even non professionals can raise intelligent questions.

 

Also, not responding to you, but in general comments.

I work at a very large medical institution and roughly 1 in 3-5 who have been vaccinated have experienced side effects severe enough to keep them from work from a couple of days up to a month. No data on long term effects. I am not saying take your chances with Covid because, as someone here is sure to point out, I know some people have lasting effects more severe than vaccine effects. But many people also have no Sx from the disease.

That is an unbelievable ratio,  and totally totally inconsistent with the figures in the UK 

[ldubs]

49 minutes ago, 2wheelin said:

 

 

Also, not responding to you, but in general comments.

I work at a very large medical institution and roughly 1 in 3-5 who have been vaccinated have experienced side effects severe enough to keep them from work from a couple of days up to a month. No data on long term effects. I am not saying take your chances with Covid because, as someone here is sure to point out, I know some people have lasting effects more severe than vaccine effects. But many people also have no Sx from the disease.

 

I wish you had not said this, this being that  20% to 33% of those vaccinated have become so sick as to be out for at least 2 days?  I'm sorry but I have to question this or at least say that there has to be something else going on.  

 

I'm not sure of the exact numbers but something like 40,000 people were involved in the vaccine trials and nothing like this was found.  Additionally, and again I'm not sure of the exact number, but 35 to 45 million American's have been vaccinated so far and there is no report of anything like this.  Nothing. Nada.  

 

 

 

 

  

 

 

[capriccio]

1 hour ago, 2wheelin said:

Science is interpretation of facts. Several scientists may interpret the same set of facts differently. I know this because I spent over 40 years in medical research. You have to look deeper to see how those “facts” were arrived at. So yes, science is debatable and even non professionals can raise intelligent questions.

 

Also, not responding to you, but in general comments.

I work at a very large medical institution and roughly 1 in 3-5 who have been vaccinated have experienced side effects severe enough to keep them from work from a couple of days up to a month. No data on long term effects. I am not saying take your chances with Covid because, as someone here is sure to point out, I know some people have lasting effects more severe than vaccine effects. But many people also have no Sx from the disease.

 

Which is it 1 in 3 (33%) or 1 in 5 (20%)? Do you have access to the actual numbers or is this anecdotal?

 

I can add anecdotally that out of the 11 individuals that I know that have been fully vaccinated, one (also a health care worker) had a reaction that resulted in missing two days of work.  The rest had, at most, sore arms.  So that is a less than 10% incidence of a severe reaction.

 

[Ride-The-Waves]

1 hour ago, 2wheelin said:

Science is interpretation of facts. Several scientists may interpret the same set of facts differently. I know this because I spent over 40 years in medical research. You have to look deeper to see how those “facts” were arrived at. So yes, science is debatable and even non professionals can raise intelligent questions.

 

Also, not responding to you, but in general comments.

I work at a very large medical institution and roughly 1 in 3-5 who have been vaccinated have experienced side effects severe enough to keep them from work from a couple of days up to a month. No data on long term effects. I am not saying take your chances with Covid because, as someone here is sure to point out, I know some people have lasting effects more severe than vaccine effects. But many people also have no Sx from the disease.

Incorrect, again.  Facts do not require interpretation.  

 

The speed of light in a vacuum is 299 792 458 m/s.

 

The circumference of a circle is 22/7ths of its diameter, known as Pi.

 

Etc.  FACTS!  Not supposition or faked information.

 

Lastly, I have heard of no one requiring 3-5 days to recuperate from a Pfizer or Moderna vaccination.  That is based on my own group of us 65 and over, and from my son and DIL who work in major medical center in Greenville, SC.  Trying the "sell" "made up" numbers is not what is needed for any discussion.

 

 

[quattrohead]

My step daughter works in medical and has had her 2 shots. After each, she had a temperature the following day and felt unwell. Her work would not let her go in and gave her feces for missing a day "sick"

Obviously the vast majority of over 65 do not work so they are not missing work days, they can rest quietly at home until better.

[quattrohead]

18 hours ago, tosteve1 said:

Yeah, but....don’t think anybody predicted it. If you have a link to a model that predicted a drop like this

I did but I'm not important enough for anyone to listen to me 🤪

[Daniel A]

27 minutes ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

Incorrect, again.  Facts do not require interpretation.  

 

The speed of light in a vacuum is 299 792 458 m/s.

 

The circumference of a circle is 22/7ths of its diameter, known as Pi.

 

Etc.  FACTS!  Not supposition or faked information.

 

The scientific method has five basic steps, plus one feedback step:

Make an observation.

Ask a question.

Form a hypothesis, or testable explanation.

Make a prediction based on the hypothesis.

Test the prediction.

Iterate: use the results to make new hypotheses or predictions.

 

A hypothesis is an assumption, an idea that is proposed for the sake of argument so that it can be tested to see if it might be true. In the scientific method, the hypothesis is constructed before any applicable research has been done...

 

A much simpler definition of the term hypothesis is making an educated guess.  That's where debate comes in.  Isn't peer review of scientific studies a form of debate?

[Ride-The-Waves]

31 minutes ago, Daniel A said:

The scientific method has five basic steps, plus one feedback step:

Make an observation.

Ask a question.

Form a hypothesis, or testable explanation.

Make a prediction based on the hypothesis.

Test the prediction.

Iterate: use the results to make new hypotheses or predictions.

 

A hypothesis is an assumption, an idea that is proposed for the sake of argument so that it can be tested to see if it might be true. In the scientific method, the hypothesis is constructed before any applicable research has been done...

 

A much simpler definition of the term hypothesis is making an educated guess.  That's where debate comes in.  Isn't peer review of scientific studies a form of debate?

Pi is not an "educated guess."  It is science fact.  Not debatable.  

[Daniel A]

13 minutes ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

Pi is not an "educated guess."  It is science fact.  Not debatable.  

I wasn't referencing facts, just the inferences which are drawn from and interpreted from facts.  Those inferences are debatable.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Pi a mathematical fact not a science fact?  I believe the use of PI in science is to designate who is a Principal Investigator.

[clo]

2 hours ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

Incorrect, again.  Facts do not require interpretation.  

 

I worked in a CDC lab many lifetimes ago. I ran a particular test and I gave the results to others at times for interpretation. Results were FACTS but required interpretation.

Edited February 17, 2021 by clo

[tosteve1]

4 hours ago, 2wheelin said:

Science is interpretation of facts. Several scientists may interpret the same set of facts differently. I know this because I spent over 40 years in medical research. You have to look deeper to see how those “facts” were arrived at. So yes, science is debatable and even non professionals can raise intelligent questions.

 

Also, not responding to you, but in general comments.

I work at a very large medical institution and roughly 1 in 3-5 who have been vaccinated have experienced side effects severe enough to keep them from work from a couple of days up to a month. No data on long term effects. I am not saying take your chances with Covid because, as someone here is sure to point out, I know some people have lasting effects more severe than vaccine effects. But many people also have no Sx from the disease.

2 hours ago, capriccio said:

 

Which is it 1 in 3 (33%) or 1 in 5 (20%)? Do you have access to the actual numbers or is this anecdotal?

 

I can add anecdotally that out of the 11 individuals that I know that have been fully vaccinated, one (also a health care worker) had a reaction that resulted in missing two days of work.  The rest had, at most, sore arms.  So that is a less than 10% incidence of a severe reaction.

 

In our 70 person medical office, I know 3 who had fevers after their second injection. Missed one day of work. We have people out every day for one thing or the other so no different than baseline. We have had more people out with COVID itself.

[tosteve1]

1 hour ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

Pi is not an "educated guess."  It is science fact.  Not debatable.  

No, Science makes predictions. That’s the scientific method. Sciences like epidemiology, economics or meteorology are worthless if they can’t correctly make predictions. 

[tosteve1]

FYI

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-why-the-number-of-covid-19-cases-is-dropping-globally/

[jfunk138]

On 2/12/2021 at 2:29 PM, Thrak said:

Will you cruise if vaccination is mandatory in order to board?

NO

[ontheweb]

32 minutes ago, tosteve1 said:

FYI

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-why-the-number-of-covid-19-cases-is-dropping-globally/

Thank you, interesting article, but I did not really see a conclusion as to why there has been such a steep drop in cases globally.

 

I did notice the warning that often when there is a drop, it is followed by lowering protective measures and then another increase.

[cruisemom42]

I think this thread has officially jumped the shark.

 

Minor vaccine reactions are going to occur; they occur with just about all vaccines. In today's environment if someone has a low grade fever, then certainly better that they stay at home. But it's not really something to be concerned about.

 

Show me data on any serious or long lasting side effects. Opinions or "n of 1" observations are worthless.

 

[ontheweb]

1 minute ago, cruisemom42 said:

I think this thread has officially jumped the shark.

 

Minor vaccine reactions are going to occur; they occur with just about all vaccines. In today's environment if someone has a low grade fever, then certainly better that they stay at home. But it's not really something to be concerned about.

 

Show me data on any serious or long lasting side effects. Opinions or "n of 1" observations are worthless.

 

Is there anything without a side effect for someone? DW and one of my younger brothers are allergic to penicillin, but I do not try to make a case that no one should ever take penicillin.

 

With the Covid shot they make you wait for 15 minutes after your vaccination so as to make sure there is not an immediate serious side effect which could occur if you are allergic to an ingredient in the vaccine.

[getting older slowly]

I'm pretty sure Australia and New Zealand can tell you why their cases are down.

6 hours ago, ontheweb said:

Yes, and other places can also.

1. More people are taking masking and social distancing seriously.

2. The vaccine rollout has begun.

3. It is also down because it is coming off a historic high that was predicted after Christmas/New Years vacation travel.

 

1.Yes  most people have be wearing masks and social distancing

2. No the Vaccine rollout will begin in a week or so    finishing about October

3. No Historic high

 

Why....

1 it is an Island... state border have been closed

2. Lockdowns    100 days plus

3. people not traveling

4. Started Lockdowns April 2020

 

Don

 

[tosteve1]

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/
 

new variant...cases still dropped 75%

[ldubs]

1 hour ago, getting older slowly said:

I'm pretty sure Australia and New Zealand can tell you why their cases are down.

 

1.Yes  most people have be wearing masks and social distancing

2. No the Vaccine rollout will begin in a week or so    finishing about October

3. No Historic high

 

Why....

1 it is an Island... state border have been closed

2. Lockdowns    100 days plus

3. people not traveling

4. Started Lockdowns April 2020

 

Don

 

 

A good friend who is like family, is supposed to attend her niece's wedding in Sydney this November.  Some of our actual family were planning on joining.   I wonder if they will be able to make the trip by then.     

[Toofarfromthesea]

23 hours ago, TheOldBear said:

The projections on the 'wordometer' covid pages always show the future as increased cases and deaths. Needless to say, their past projections did not match actual events - but apparently they are continuing to use the same models.

 

Models are not science, whether we are are talking about economic models, climate models, or public health models.  The models at the start of COVID played a huge role is misallocated resources and bad policy decisions.

[ilikeanswers]

23 minutes ago, ldubs said:

A good friend who is like family, is supposed to attend her niece's wedding in Sydney this November.  Some of our actual family were planning on joining.   I wonder if they will be able to make the trip by then.     

 

Based on what our government has been saying most likely no 😕. Unless they are competing in a sporting event or are a judge in a reality show 🙄😜

Edited February 17, 2021 by ilikeanswers

[Toofarfromthesea]

22 hours ago, Daniel A said:

 

I stand corrected.  It is the climatologists who tell us what the weather will be like in ten years. 

 

All of meteorology, climatology, volcanology and Seismology are part of the Earth Sciences, which are very adept at predicting what disasters may befall us and when.

 

I can fully understand why we must 'follow the science' without question or debate.  Science is fact, not opinion.  This is why they always get it right?  Anybody here ever get a second medical opinion?  MD's are also scientists.  Why would anybody ever do that?

 

I trust this was all intended as irony?

[ilikeanswers]

Worldometers isn't the only model:

 

Where The Latest COVID-19 Models Think We're Headed — And Why They Disagree

Edited February 17, 2021 by ilikeanswers

[Toofarfromthesea]

6 hours ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

Incorrect, again.  Facts do not require interpretation.  

 

The speed of light in a vacuum is 299 792 458 m/s.

 

The circumference of a circle is 22/7ths of its diameter, known as Pi.

 

Etc.  FACTS!  Not supposition or faked information.

 

Lastly, I have heard of no one requiring 3-5 days to recuperate from a Pfizer or Moderna vaccination.  That is based on my own group of us 65 and over, and from my son and DIL who work in major medical center in Greenville, SC.  Trying the "sell" "made up" numbers is not what is needed for any discussion.

 

 

Yeah, no.  That "fact" is not a fact.  Pi is not equal to 22/7, that is just an estimate.  22/7 is a rational number, pi is an irrational number.  

You really have no idea what the word fact means, because very little of science is actually fact, because facts are pretty difficult things to establish.  At best we just get approximations.  Like your speed of light fact.  It is an approximation, not a fact.