After you read this, you may think twice about boarding a cruise ship or airplane so soon!

[Jimbo]

30 minutes ago, A&L_Ont said:

 

I think this should work. 
 

 

Thanks, pretty eye opening isn't it?

[Milwaukee Eight]

44 minutes ago, A&L_Ont said:

 

I think this should work. 
 

Thanks. That worked. 

[Big_G]

1 hour ago, Milwaukee Eight said:

Doesn’t seem to allow me to do so on iPhone. I’ll keep trying. 

 

I used 'Private Window' in Firefox. Probably could use 'Incognito' on Chrome. Not sure about Edge, Safari, or IE.

[Starry Eyes]

Sigh.  Air travel carries most global travelers, not cruise ships.  Sadly people left Wuhan on airplanes with the virus. It spread to fellow travelers in airports and in nearby seats on planes.  At their destinations it spread further in those communities all around the globe.  Yes, some people got on cruise ships, but the main way infected people traveled between continents was obviously by air, not sea.  Not blaming the airlines; they are the major method of moving people long distances, especially between continents.  And the people the airlines flew carried the virus with them.  Cruise ship illnesses made headlines, but that does not mean they were the source of the viral outbreaks.

[MADflyer]

I see the article only as a factual account of what actually happened and trying to make sense of the cruise industries' actions and reactions to the developing pandemic. What makes it great investigative journalism is how it connects the events in real time and provides information from both the cruise lines and passenger's perspectives. 

 

The quote from the CDC really says it all:

 

“This is not to point blame,” said Marty Cetron, director of the CDC’s Division of Global Migration and Quarantine, in an interview earlier this month. “But we have to be honest about the science and the evidence.”

 

Air travel and resort travel differ in one key way from the cruise segment in that the passenger is much more dependent on the information provided by the cruise line, the competence of the medical staff and shipboard and shore-side management. 

 

Take the case of Miami Beach, where the health department and city management made the call to close the hotels on Miami Beach and not the individual hotels with their varied motivations to stay open or close. 

 

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/article241382501.html

[Jimbo]

24 minutes ago, MADflyer said:

I see the article only as a factual account of what actually happened and trying to make sense of the cruise industries' actions and reactions to the developing pandemic. What makes it great investigative journalism is how it connects the events in real time and provides information from both the cruise lines and passenger's perspectives. 

 

The quote from the CDC really says it all:

 

“This is not to point blame,” said Marty Cetron, director of the CDC’s Division of Global Migration and Quarantine, in an interview earlier this month. “But we have to be honest about the science and the evidence.”

 

Air travel and resort travel differ in one key way from the cruise segment in that the passenger is much more dependent on the information provided by the cruise line, the competence of the medical staff and shipboard and shore-side management. 

 

Take the case of Miami Beach, where the health department and city management made the call to close the hotels on Miami Beach and not the individual hotels with their varied motivations to stay open or close. 

 

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/article241382501.html

That's exactly the issue, the medical staff on these cruise ships and shore side management really lacks the training to handle these kinds of medical issues. If they don't assure the CDC they can handle these kind of issues it will still be under a NO SAIL ORDER. 

 

So until they upgrade that it will be hard for the ship staff  to handle REAL issues on that arise on  cruise ships.

[datolim]

18 minutes ago, Jimbo said:

That's exactly the issue, the medical staff on these cruise ships and shore side management really lacks the training to handle these kinds of medical issues. If they don't assure the CDC they can handle these kind of issues it will still be under a NO SAIL ORDER. 

 

So until they upgrade that it will be hard for the ship staff  to handle REAL issues on that arise on  cruise ships.

Agree with you 100%. Zero chance CDC will let them cruise again.

 

Even IF CDC let them which country would let them dock in their country.

[banzaii]

9 hours ago, MADflyer said:

I see the article only as a factual account of what actually happened and trying to make sense of the cruise industries' actions and reactions to the developing pandemic. What makes it great investigative journalism is how it connects the events in real time and provides information from both the cruise lines and passenger's perspectives

No doubt that this article is well written but does little to provide a balanced perspective on the role cruise ships truly played in spreading the virus.

 

Fact is, travellers spread coronavirus.  Some by contracting it and passing it on before they knew they were sick and some by ignoring symptoms and being desperate to get home.

 

More of these travellers used air than sea, no doubt about it.  There are vast simiariities between air and sea travel.  Close contact is largely unavoidable on both. The difference is that planes cannot be denied 'docking' in port indefinately.  My point is, how many travellers since the start of this, did not get the virus?

 

The main point missed in the article to make it truly great and balanced reporting would be to add the perpective of time to infection rates.  Instead of comparing pure numbers of infections, why not calculate the rate of infection by minute of air travel then the rate of infection by minute of cruise travel.  Then compare that with the infection rate of close contacts of returned travellers by minute of contact to see where one is most likely to contract the virus.

Edited April 29, 2020 by banzaii

[rimmit]

2 minutes ago, banzaii said:

No doubt that this article is well written but does little to provide a balanced perspective on the role cruise ships truly played in spreading the virus.

 

Fact is, travellers spread coronavirus.  Some by contracting it and passing it on before they knew they were sick and some by ignoring symptoms and being desparate to to home.

 

More of these travellers used air than sea, no doubt about it.  There are vast simiariities between air and sea travel.  Close contact, is largely unavoidable on both. The difference is that planes cannot be denied 'docking' in port indefinately.

 

The main point missed in the article to make it truly great and balanced reporting would be to add the perpective of time to infection rates.  Instead of comparing pure numbers of infections, why not calculate the rate of infection by minute of air travel then the rate of infection by minute of cruise travel.  Then compare that with the infection rate of close contacts of returned travellers by minute of contact to see where one is most likely to contract the virus.

The airline would almost assuredly win that argument.  There have been no known massive outbreaks traced back to specific flights.  Yes the airline seeded the globe,  but it was very rare for someone to get infected from a flight, even with known Covid passengers in which they did contact tracing.  There has been no “Ruby Princess” of airline’s only which everyone got off and could be traced back to on specific flight after people started dying.
 

My best guess is It’s likely due to lack of movement of people on an airline, as in everyone stays in one spot the whole time and aren’t touching things like mad and socializing.  Most people just sit in their seats and try to sleep and watch an occasional movie.   They aren’t eating and drinking at a bar, hugging, handshaking, etc. The social aspect of cruising Combined with the high population likely has a lot to do with the fast transmission and cruise ships becoming hot beds fast.

 

[banzaii]

Even on Ruby princess, the majority of travellers did not contract the virus and secondary infections (passed on to close contacts) were minimal despite the Australian goverment stuff up.  

 

Air travellers account for the majority of spread to the community because they are largely asymptomatic during and after the flights.

[RKHOOKER]

Covid19 is still an unknown virus.  The linked article below makes you wonder how bad it really is.
 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertglatter/2020/04/27/why-is-covid-19-coronavirus-causing-strokes-in-young-and-middle-aged-people/#6ba68c8334df

[rimmit]

15 minutes ago, banzaii said:

Even on Ruby princess, the majority of travellers did not contract the virus and secondary infections (passed on to close contacts) were minimal despite the Australian goverment stuff up.  

 

Air travellers account for the majority of spread to the community because they are largely asymptomatic during and after the flights.

Yes the vast majority of people in general do not contract the virus.  The difference between planes and cruise ships is that you can have 10 percent of a cruise ship infected or more.  You do not have 10 percent of a flight infected after they go on a flight.  That has just not been shown to happen this far.
 

Again there has yet to be one flight that was investigated with known Covid Passenger in which a large (large being more than maybe 1-2 other people, so still a small number) percentage of the flight got infected.  It’s not like people got on the flight and by the time they landed 10 people got infected.   That’s just not been shown to be the case.  I am betting more people got infected in airports where people are touching Elevator buttons, rails, Toilets, seats, power outlets, etc than on a plane where no one you touched anything but their seat and maybe the bathroom and a seat or two on the way to the bathroom.  
 

Cruise ships spread disease fast.  As does nursing homes, aircraft carriers, and likely forms of colleges weren’t let out for spring break and shutting down right when this was taking off.  Population density seems to be one of the big things for this and any viral transmission in general.

[blueridgemama]

Good to see the fake news and science deniers also are alive and well on cruise critic.

[shipgeeks]

Go to Australia/New Zealand board, and read A Cruise Ship Captain's Perspective on Recent Events.

[Joseph2017China]

I don't read fake news.  We all know we are dealing with a health issue, and that people and industry had a wake up call to make changes.  But I am still going to fly, go on cruises and go to hotels.  I'm going in September.  Unless it is cancelled but I very much plan on going.  If it is canceled, I will still go someplace else. 

[Judyrem]

12 hours ago, Tapi said:

Even though the article is mostly about the cruise industry, I’ll chime in concerning airplanes since you mentioned them in your title 

 

Let me start by saying that I’ve been flying on a weekly basis throughout this pandemic. During this time, I’ve watched how the airline industry has transformed itself rather quickly to make flying probably the healthiest it’s ever been. From education concerning how the air filtration system works, and the way that air flows and recycles inside the cabin, to deep cleaning and fogging utilizing Matrix 3 cleaners, new boarding procedures, blocked rows of seats to support social distancing, changes to catering and onboard offerings to limit contact with passengers and more, I actually feel safer flying these days than going to the local grocery store.
 

More importantly, fellow passengers seem to be onboard with the program, most of them wearing masks, gloves, and bringing their own sanitizing wipes which they use to clean their seats and surrounding surfaces once they settle in. Flight attendants wear masks and gloves at all times as well and conduct their service using new procedures. 
 

Respectfully, I encourage you to familiarize yourself with what the airlines are doing to support social distancing and healthier flying conditions. We need less opinion pieces and more facts if we are ever going to move past this pandemic. 

I am flying May 21 to Norfolk to see my family.  I am less afraid to fly now than I was before!

[Fla Mike]

12 hours ago, Tapi said:

We need less opinion pieces and more facts if we are ever going to move past this pandemic. 

 

This ^^^

[Guest BigRoger]

Reality is it will be personal choice based on age, health, risk appetite (and desperation to go on a ship!) as to when people cruise or fly again.... this article (like many of the others written by journalists who have nothing other to write about and earn freelance fees other than click bait re hashes about cruise lines) won’t have any impact on our decision to cruise as soon as things are open and deemed (acceptably) safe 

[EscapeFromConnecticut]

2 hours ago, rimmit said:

Yes the vast majority of people in general do not contract the virus.  The difference between planes and cruise ships is that you can have 10 percent of a cruise ship infected or more.  You do not have 10 percent of a flight infected after they go on a flight.  That has just not been shown to happen this far.
 

Again there has yet to be one flight that was investigated with known Covid Passenger in which a large (large being more than maybe 1-2 other people, so still a small number) percentage of the flight got infected.  It’s not like people got on the flight and by the time they landed 10 people got infected.   That’s just not been shown to be the case.  I am betting more people got infected in airports where people are touching Elevator buttons, rails, Toilets, seats, power outlets, etc than on a plane where no one you touched anything but their seat and maybe the bathroom and a seat or two on the way to the bathroom.  
 

Cruise ships spread disease fast.  As does nursing homes, aircraft carriers, and likely forms of colleges weren’t let out for spring break and shutting down right when this was taking off.  Population density seems to be one of the big things for this and any viral transmission in general.

All valid points. And all factual.

It's unfortunate that CC - like society - has a segment that rejects science or reason, and laughably talks about "fake news."  Now, we know where fake news comes from ... and it's surely not The Washington Post. 

Cruisers would do well to focus energy on facts and research; that's what science is about. You might wonder if more people had been paying attention early on whether some of the nightmare cruises of March wouldn't have happened:

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/02/scientist-decries-completely-chaotic-conditions-cruise-ship-japan-quarantined-after

[HBE4]

2 hours ago, blueridgemama said:

Good to see the fake news and science deniers also are alive and well on cruise critic.

 

On the plus side, moderators are doing a good job of cleaning up some of the recently hijacked threads. 

 

On topic, I thought the article was interesting.  Always good to a see detailed story of what it was like vs just a quick news blurb.

 

I'll probably wait a few months after cruising resumes to get on a ship. Not so much out of fear but want to see how everything shakes out, what the customer experience is like and let the cruise line work the kinks out of any new procedures and protocols they implement. 

[Sea Dog]

30 minutes ago, EscapeFromConnecticut said:

Cruisers would do well to focus energy on facts and research; that's what science is about.

Thank you for being a voice of reason. 

[Empehi]

Let me get this straight. There is a massive Covid19 outbreak in China and the US will not allow flights into the country from China.  Then there is a massive Covid19 outbreak in Italy but the US and Caribbean Islands allows Italian cruise ships to sail around dropping off infected passengers.  Shame on us.

[d9704011]

7 minutes ago, Empehi said:

Let me get this straight. There is a massive Covid19 outbreak in China and the US will not allow flights into the country from China.  Then there is a massive Covid19 outbreak in Italy but the US and Caribbean Islands allows Italian cruise ships to sail around dropping off infected passengers.  Shame on us.

More like a knuckleball.

[LMaxwell]

People on this forum aren't going to read the article; mostly.  They are not seeking fact based info and how dare you call their baby ugly. 

[cruisequeen4ever]

I read that article over the weekend, and though it was interesting to read, it didn’t have any effect on my desire to cruise.