No Sail Order extended - 100 days

[Shadow9612]

19 minutes ago, TeeRick said:

I am of the personal opinion that we need to stop beating up cruise lines, airlines, bus lines, public markets, governments, whatever, and maybe even ourselves. Some will disagree that is ok with me.  Beat me up here if it helps you.    It is just frustrating and unproductive, to me anyway, to point at and blame events in the past which were out of our knowledge at the time and out of our control.  It is easier for me to just understand my options now given what's happened and help myself, my family and others as I can. 

 

In retrospect everything contributed to the pandemic.  It came on extremely fast - much too fast for countries or companies or individuals or governments to properly plan and react.  Trying to narrow it down to one cruise ship is just like taking one infected jelly bean out of a jar of a million infected jelly beans.  We will never really identify jelly bean zero.  That does not matter at this point.  The Genie was let out of the bottle sometime in 2019 and we had some clues from China but it really was too late.  New data from blood banks in San Francisco shows people had viral antibodies there- in the US- as early as December 2019.  Heck I cruised on Eclipse in early January happily unaware.  It was probably already there.

👍

Love the valuable and knowledgeable insight you continue to bring to the discussions.  Thank you.

[TeeRick]

3 minutes ago, Shadow9612 said:

👍

Love the valuable and knowledgeable insight you continue to bring to the discussions.  Thank you.

Thanks I truly appreciate your comment.😊

[lvz2cruz]

On 4/10/2020 at 12:56 PM, PTC DAWG said:

When it passes FluA deaths in the US...let me know.  Keep in mind, many places are attributing any death to Covoid. 

 

18K Covoid deaths in the US so far...

 

This is from the CDC on the Flu this season

 

the CDC estimates between 39 million and 55 million flu illnesses, at least 400,000 hospitalizations, and as many as 63,000 deaths from flu

 

This is factual...not BS, remove it they want.  

I have seen several reports that if a patient has a preexisting condition and has covid but the preexisting condition causes death, it is attributed to covid.   The hospital gets 100% funding for covid cases where if other condition is shown, they go through insurance and get the lower negotiated network rate.  Also patients with respiratory issues but not tested for covid are attributed to covid.    Truth is not valued anymore.   We'll never know how many truly died from it.  

[UnorigionalName]

29 minutes ago, lvz2cruz said:

I have seen several reports that if a patient has a preexisting condition and has covid but the preexisting condition causes death, it is attributed to covid.   The hospital gets 100% funding for covid cases where if other condition is shown, they go through insurance and get the lower negotiated network rate.  Also patients with respiratory issues but not tested for covid are attributed to covid.    Truth is not valued anymore.   We'll never know how many truly died from it.  

 

Pretty sure the official statistics only count those who die with known positive test.  It is likely the opposite and seriously underestimating the COVID mortality.  You can just look by the deaths attributed to unknown or "pneumonia" which is much higher than the statistical norm.  Like for example, the huge number of NYC people who are dying in their homes.  Since testing is too short, the dead are not being tested for COVID, so are not able to be counted.

 

You are right, truth isn't valued and people are all too ready to jump on whatever they think supports their preconceived ideas.

[downsmead]

Here in the UK, the statistics given are only those deaths which occurred in a hospital. It does not include deaths at home or in care homes, so the actual figure is higher than that given out each day.

[ericosmith]

14 hours ago, TeeRick said:

I am of the personal opinion that we need to stop beating up cruise lines, airlines, bus lines, public markets, governments, whatever, and maybe even ourselves.

 

Right on!  It seems like the world these days spends more time trying to cast blame than in being productive.  What's done is done, learn from it and move forward. 

[EscapeFromConnecticut]

15 hours ago, UnorigionalName said:

 

Pretty sure the official statistics only count those who die with known positive test.  It is likely the opposite and seriously underestimating the COVID mortality.  You can just look by the deaths attributed to unknown or "pneumonia" which is much higher than the statistical norm.  Like for example, the huge number of NYC people who are dying in their homes.  Since testing is too short, the dead are not being tested for COVID, so are not able to be counted.

 

You are right, truth isn't valued and people are all too ready to jump on whatever they think supports their preconceived ideas.

  
All valid points.

 

 Valuing truth is a job that begins at home:

so far, the folks who rank ideology (Or wishful thinking) over fact have shown no willingness to examine why they're so consistently wrong. They just jump to the next wrong idea and start chirping even louder about that.

 

   The CDC 100-day order, for instance, was downplayed and dismissed at first by many on CC. But there was nothing surprising: the truth is that cruise lines created ferocious havoc during the height of a global crisis. And they turned to government for emergency help time

and time again. So naturally, government wasn't going to shrug and let business go on as usual.

       So there are tough terms and conditions - and I suspect some cruise lines won't survive the year. Certainly many cruise ships will be long-term parked - or 

more likely scrapped.

 

      Any of us watching the mainstream news could have seen this coming after the Diamond fiasco. By the time of Zaandam and Coral, it was an absolute given. But many folks persist in rejecting mainstream news - and in truth, they do it because they don't like what they're hearing or seeing. Problem is, reality doesn't care what we like. The truth simply IS ... regardless of how we feel (or how we try to hide from it)

 

   Similarly, these posts about "nobody is to blame" may be well intentioned, but they're flat-out wrong. Anyone watching CNN or NBC, or reading The NY Times or the Seattle Times or the Washington Post suspected in late January that trouble was afoot ... and knew it in February. 
 

     That's why the annual Housewares Show in Chicago (attendance 50,000 to 60,000) was canceled by March 3 - while some cruisers were still cheerfully boarding ships or planning April cruises.

 

      No, it wasn't Fake News ... no, it was "merely drive-by lamestream media hype." And no, COVID-19 is not "just the flu, just the sniffles." And no, it's not "going to be gone in a month or two and everyone will forget it."

 

     People who believed such swill should take on the challenging but vital job of examining themselves: Their own thinking is their problem. Their "news" sources are untrue. 

[1SGCruiser]

  
 
      No, it wasn't Fake News ... no, it was "merely drive-by lamestream media hype." And no, COVID-19 is not "just the flu, just the sniffles." And no, it's not "going to be gone in a month or two and everyone will forget it."

Agree!


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[Pushka]

8 hours ago, ericosmith said:

 

Right on!  It seems like the world these days spends more time trying to cast blame than in being productive.  What's done is done, learn from it and move forward. 

Surely the point is learning where, when and why mistakes are made so they never happen again. 

[1SGCruiser]

Surely the point is learning where, when and why mistakes are made so they never happen again. 

Absolutely! Examining and then adjusting for improvement is not casting blame.


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[Saab4444]

17 hours ago, UnorigionalName said:

 

Pretty sure the official statistics only count those who die with known positive test.  It is likely the opposite and seriously underestimating the COVID mortality.  You can just look by the deaths attributed to unknown or "pneumonia" which is much higher than the statistical norm.  Like for example, the huge number of NYC people who are dying in their homes.  Since testing is too short, the dead are not being tested for COVID, so are not able to be counted.

 

You are right, truth isn't valued and people are all too ready to jump on whatever they think supports their preconceived ideas.

No, it is the opposite: Every death must be reported (at least in most countries) and everyone who is tested positive counts as death because of Corona even if some would have died anyway or for other reasons. This brings the figures up. Also people don't die immediately at home by the virus, it is a process.

[bouhunter]

3 minutes ago, Saab4444 said:

No, it is the opposite: Every death must be reported (at least in most countries) and everyone who is tested positive counts as death because of Corona even if some would have died anyway or for other reasons. This brings the figures up. Also people don't die immediately at home by the virus, it is a process.

I was going to post something similar.  The "experts" in the US have openly said they are reporting corona as cause of death even if it may not have been, as long as the person tested positive for it.

 

They keep reporting the "number of cases"  (somewhere around 2,000,000 today in the US?) and death numbers.  It's entirely possible 10's of millions in the US have had it.  The mortality rate is FAR lower and this will be proven eventually once an antibody test is put in place and used extensively.

[WrittenOnYourHeart]

13 minutes ago, Saab4444 said:

No, it is the opposite: Every death must be reported (at least in most countries) and everyone who is tested positive counts as death because of Corona even if some would have died anyway or for other reasons. This brings the figures up. Also people don't die immediately at home by the virus, it is a process.

 

Sorry, but no - not all deaths that are not obvious (stroke, heart attack, accident injuries) are being reported as COVID. To be counted as COVID they must have had a positive test. Many people are not tested either because of a lack of tests OR because tests are limited to only those who have possible TYPICAL symptoms AND pre-existing conditions. They are discovering more and more possibly symptoms, some of which seem to have nothing to do with an upper respiratory infection (fatigue, loss of appetite, and diarrhea - this per medical professionals who are seeing the wide range of symptoms with tests where people are able to get them) and so someone with those could in fact have COVID but not even seek treatment because they don't think they do. If people die without having been diagnosed with COVID, especially at home, they will likely be treated as-if, but would not be recorded as a COVID death as there was no positive test.

Edited April 14, 2020 by WrittenOnYourHeart

[yorky]

1 hour ago, EscapeFromConnecticut said:

  
All valid points.

 

 Valuing truth is a job that begins at home:

so far, the folks who rank ideology (Or wishful thinking) over fact have shown no willingness to examine why they're so consistently wrong. They just jump to the next wrong idea and start chirping even louder about that.

 

   The CDC 100-day order, for instance, was downplayed and dismissed at first by many on CC. But there was nothing surprising: the truth is that cruise lines created ferocious havoc during the height of a global crisis. And they turned to government for emergency help time

and time again. So naturally, government wasn't going to shrug and let business go on as usual.

       So there are tough terms and conditions - and I suspect some cruise lines won't survive the year. Certainly many cruise ships will be long-term parked - or 

more likely scrapped.

 

      Any of us watching the mainstream news could have seen this coming after the Diamond fiasco. By the time of Zaandam and Coral, it was an absolute given. But many folks persist in rejecting mainstream news - and in truth, they do it because they don't like what they're hearing or seeing. Problem is, reality doesn't care what we like. The truth simply IS ... regardless of how we feel (or how we try to hide from it)

 

   Similarly, these posts about "nobody is to blame" may be well intentioned, but they're flat-out wrong. Anyone watching CNN or NBC, or reading The NY Times or the Seattle Times or the Washington Post suspected in late January that trouble was afoot ... and knew it in February. 
 

     That's why the annual Housewares Show in Chicago (attendance 50,000 to 60,000) was canceled by March 3 - while some cruisers were still cheerfully boarding ships or planning April cruises.

 

      No, it wasn't Fake News ... no, it was "merely drive-by lamestream media hype." And no, COVID-19 is not "just the flu, just the sniffles." And no, it's not "going to be gone in a month or two and everyone will forget it."

 

     People who believed such swill should take on the challenging but vital job of examining themselves: Their own thinking is their problem. Their "news" sources are untrue. 

And this is why I question “Personal responsibility” did the cruise lines make mistakes ? Without a doubt. But as much as I feel for those stuck on cruise ships of late why did they happily up sticks, get on a plane, and mingle with another 2500 individuals when they knew there was a global pandemic ? I can’t believe that they thought that because cruise line were stating that their ships were safe that meant that they could not contract the virus given it’s one of the easiest ways to pass a virus around going, those crew are standing with hand gels at the buffet for a reason. I can only think many just chose to bury their heads in the sand rather than lose the money. Yes I believe cruising should have been shutdown quicker, but given it was not there is no way I would have been walking up that gangplank in March, it was plain crazy. A cruise ship is nothing more than a big floating hotel. How many people would be phoning one of the big chains asking if they could protect them from Covid 19 or feeling they were safe because the hotel stated they were disinfecting everything.

Edited April 14, 2020 by yorky

[Charles4515]

And this is why I question “Personal responsibility” did the cruise lines make mistakes ? Without a doubt. But as much as I feel for those stuck on cruise ships of late why did they happily up sticks, get on a plane, and mingle with another 2500 individuals when they knew there was a global pandemic ? I can’t believe that they thought that because cruise line were stating that their ships were safe that meant that they could not contract the virus given it’s one of the easiest ways to pass a virus around going, those crew are standing with hand gels at the buffet for a reason. I can only think many just chose to bury their heads in the sand rather than lose the money. Yes I believe cruising should have been shutdown quicker, but given it was not there is no way I would have been walking up that gangplank in March, it was plain crazy. A cruise ship is nothing more than a big floating hotel. How many people would be phoning one of the big chains asking if they could protect them from Covid 19 or feeling they were safe because the hotel stated they were disinfecting everything.

I posted in middle to late February that people should cancel and got a lot of flack. That said I think the brunt of responsibility belongs to the cruise lines. They encouraged people to sail. They had draconian cancel policies. When the Diamond Princess fiasco happened was when cruise lines should have suspended operations. The cruise lines knew a lot more about the virus than individuals could know in February. They had to be forced to suspend in mid March. I hate to use this word but the current top management of the cruise lines are evil.


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[EscapeFromConnecticut]

6 minutes ago, Charles4515 said:

 

I posted in middle to late February that people should cancel and got a lot of flack. That said I think the brunt of responsibility belongs to the cruise lines. They encouraged people to sail. They had draconian cancel policies. When the Diamond Princess fiasco happened was when cruise lines should have suspended operations. The cruise lines knew a lot more about the virus than individuals could know in February. They had to be forced to suspend in mid March. I hate to use this word but the current top management of the cruise lines are evil.


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Yes and yes.

"Evil" - perhaps, bit I think we can find common ground on "dangerously reckless, short-sighted & stupid."

You can SMELL how the last cruises were sent off:  Somebody (without a lot of corporate juice) in Operations said "Uh, boss, news from Wuhan and Italy continues to worsen. Given the Diamond & Golden horror stories, maybe we should call back every ship out there & cancel everything for March and April at least"

And arrogant, self-important execs (with juice) backed by spineless beancounters shot back "Do you know what that would do to the quarterly numbers?!?! Are you CRAZY?? None of that's going to happen - they'll just have to tighten up on onboard cleaning, that's all."

And now all three of the big cruise corporations are at severe risk. The virus and the recession brought it on, but their self-inflicted wounds have worsened it immeasurably. 

[jonthomas]

I really agree with you on this. And going forward it will be the same "spineless beancounters" that will rush to sail again, dang the consequences.

 

I can only hope that a governing body, like the CDC can intervene with strict, mandatory guidelines before allowing any of these cruise lines to operate in any of US waters and ports.

 

That way should you chose to go overseas you do so at your own peril. But if staying closer to home, you will be protected somewhat. If one can ever be protected on a cruiseship.

[groryjm]

Apparantly it's not 100 days but now 80 so July

 

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/travel/cruises/2020/04/13/coronavirus-cruise-ships-saw-red-flags-amid-chaotic-federal-response/2937001001/

[LMaxwell]

5 minutes ago, groryjm said:

Apparantly it's not 100 days but now 80 so July

 

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/travel/cruises/2020/04/13/coronavirus-cruise-ships-saw-red-flags-amid-chaotic-federal-response/2937001001/

It was 120, reduced to 100.  The order can be rescinded, amended, extended as necessary.  That just sets the goal post of the next time it *must* be addressed if it has not. 

[Charles4515]

It was 120, reduced to 100.  The order can be rescinded, amended, extended as necessary.  That just sets the goal post of the next time it *must* be addressed if it has not. 

I don’t think most people are reading the order. The content of the CDC order, the conclusions and recommendations for future sailings are much more important than quibbling over the dates. Time will tell about when sailings actually return not how long the order is in effect for now.


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[LMaxwell]

2 minutes ago, Charles4515 said:

 

I don’t think most people are reading the order. The content of the CDC order, the conclusions and recommendations for future sailings are much more important than quibbling over the dates. Time will tell about when sailings actually return not how long the order is in effect for now.


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Exactly.  The number is just arbitrary date to re-examine things if nothing has been addressed before then.  I am eagerly awaiting the latest CDC publication and what it requires cruise lines to do regarding evacuation, repatriation, sick care, etc... that's what REALLY counts .  

 

How confident is an American citizen boarding a cruise ship out of a US Port with being told by the USCG "We aren't going to come for you in an emergency"? 

[npcl]

40 minutes ago, LMaxwell said:

Exactly.  The number is just arbitrary date to re-examine things if nothing has been addressed before then.  I am eagerly awaiting the latest CDC publication and what it requires cruise lines to do regarding evacuation, repatriation, sick care, etc... that's what REALLY counts .  

 

How confident is an American citizen boarding a cruise ship out of a US Port with being told by the USCG "We aren't going to come for you in an emergency"? 

Not only are we not going to come for you, but if Covid is on board we are not even letting the ship back into port.

[LMaxwell]

5 minutes ago, npcl said:

Not only are we not going to come for you, but if Covid is on board we are not even letting the ship back into port.

The reliance on the industry for evacuation, repatriation, and medical care, which has historically done a 'not excellent' job of self-regulating themselves, is pretty concerning.  I'm not sure I believe people should have reasonable expectation for world class medical facilities onboard, and I question whether going forward if companies with a for-profit motive can best be trusted to source, pay for, execute on the required plans.  

 

While I was not in favor of bailing out cruise lines, numerous strings could have been attached in the form of guest favorable regulations. 

[HS2BS]

Everyone who has cruised has encountered a medical emergency that either redirects the ship to a port that can handle it.The other occurrence has been a pair of helicopters(Coast Guard always sends two for safety) has to retrieve the medical emergency. We were on the 12/12/19 sailing of the Summit when a medical emergency evacuation was done by the Coast Guard, in miserable weather and had to lower their rescue team onto the ship. 
Who gets billed for that?

 

Hal

[LMaxwell]

1 minute ago, HS2BS said:

 
Who gets billed for that?

 

 

U.S. taxpayers.  Cruise lines are not billed for at-sea assistance by USCG or USN.