No Sail Order extended - 100 days

[Fouremco]

15 minutes ago, MarLieb said:

 

Thank you so much!  Do you happen to know if anything has changed from the last order?  I read through both and they sound the same.  Does this one re-set the clock on the 100 days?  I guess I'm just unclear as to the reason to re-publish.  Thank you!

100 days from today.

 

I've not read the two side-by-side, so I can't help you on changes.

Edited April 15, 2020 by Fouremco

[MarLieb]

2 minutes ago, Fouremco said:

100 days from to day.

 

I've not read the two side-by-side, so I can't help you on changes.

 

So, should we expect to see these updated about every 7 days unless the industry comes up with a plan?  The orders always reference that the cruise lines need to come up with a plan within 7 days, but it appears no one has come up with anything satisfactory yet.  

[Charles4515]

 
Thank you so much!  Do you happen to know if anything has changed from the last order?  I read through both and they sound the same.  Does this one re-set the clock on the 100 days?  I guess I'm just unclear as to the reason to re-publish.  Thank you!

This might be the way orders are done. They put it out there with a future publish date. Get comments. Then publish.


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[phoenix_dream]

So if I am counting right, this applies through July 25th?  As luck would have it, our cruise is scheduled to sail July 26th😒.  I know dates can still change, but I was hoping to get my cruise officially cancelled so I could get a full refund.  Already have some FCC for next year that I don't even know if I can use.

[HS2BS]

I read both orders and find them similar, but the new(today) clarifies what the cruise lines must do to their ships to sail again.
The main point is that the cruise lines want to do as little as possible, and the CDC is ordering health and safety orders to protect the cruising community!

The cruise industry(CLIA) did construct a plan during(after March 14) which was insufficient called “On Course”. Then on April 3 submitted a new plan called”Framework”, which from reading the CDC filing, 4/15/2010 did not meet requirements.

 

Hal

[cangelmd]

3 hours ago, kebrown said:

I am so glad you shared your friend's experience because this is something that I have suspected for a while.  I believe that the number of deaths being reported around the world from Covid19 are not completely accurate.  I believe that some of these people who died, especially the elderly, were probably already dying from chronic medical conditions before they tested positive for Covid19.  Some of these deaths, in my opinion, are being reported as Covid19 related when in reality, some of these people probably died from preexisting conditions.  I may be wrong, but I do not believe that the number of deaths being reported from this virus is accurate.   I believe the accurate numbers are probably much lower, especially amount the people who had severe preexisting medical conditions.  

Keep in mind that multiple causes of death can and should be listed on a death certificate (and that state requirements can vary somewhat). If the person with pancreatic cancer died with respiratory failure and a positive Covid test, Covid is part of their cause of death, even with advanced cancer. Also, “they” want all patients with positive Covid tests who die, at least right now, to have Covid listed so those persons can be located in the states’ databases for research purposes and to help”clean up the statistics” later. There’s been a lot of angst about politically motivated inaccuracies, but honestly, based on past epidemiological experience, Covid deaths are much more likely to be undercounted, than overcounted. Most coroners will be very reluctant to list a case as Covid without a Positive test, even if very suspicious, understandably. 

[npcl]

36 minutes ago, HS2BS said:

I read both orders and find them similar, but the new(today) clarifies what the cruise lines must do to their ships to sail again.
The main point is that the cruise lines want to do as little as possible, and the CDC is ordering health and safety orders to protect the cruising community!

The cruise industry(CLIA) did construct a plan during(after March 14) which was insufficient called “On Course”. Then on April 3 submitted a new plan called”Framework”, which from reading the CDC filing, 4/15/2010 did not meet requirements.

 

Hal

From my read they offered the plan in March, but never implemented it (according to the features the CDC listed).

 

The framework was not an expansion of the March plan, but instead is specifically to deal with the issue of crew and some passengers on ships waiting off shore at sea.  That is what most of the CDC details are focused on.  They really have not gotten back into what is required for the ships to actually sail again.

[npcl]

4 minutes ago, cangelmd said:

Keep in mind that multiple causes of death can and should be listed on a death certificate (and that state requirements can vary somewhat). If the person with pancreatic cancer died with respiratory failure and a positive Covid test, Covid is part of their cause of death, even with advanced cancer. Also, “they” want all patients with positive Covid tests who die, at least right now, to have Covid listed so those persons can be located in the states’ databases for research purposes and to help”clean up the statistics” later. There’s been a lot of angst about politically motivated inaccuracies, but honestly, based on past epidemiological experience, Covid deaths are much more likely to be undercounted, than overcounted. Most coroners will be very reluctant to list a case as Covid without a Positive test, even if very suspicious, understandably. 

Pretty much the only thing counted as Covid-19 deaths are those that occur in the hospitals and those in nursing homes.  Someone that dies at home are, in general, not in the stats in most states.

[downsmead]

17 minutes ago, npcl said:

Pretty much the only thing counted as Covid-19 deaths are those that occur in the hospitals and those in nursing homes.  Someone that dies at home are, in general, not in the stats in most states.

Here in the UK up until now, the statistics released daily have only accounted for those deaths in hospitals. It is estimated that ‘at home’ deaths and deaths in care / nursing homes add, at least, another 10% on top of that figure. As of this week, Covid 19 testing is now being rolled out to care and nursing homes and as a result we will most likely see an increase in the percentage of positive tests. Plus, if they change how the numbers are counted, we would expect an upward trend in the first instance.

[drakes2]

1 hour ago, phoenix_dream said:

So if I am counting right, this applies through July 25th?  As luck would have it, our cruise is scheduled to sail July 26th😒.  I know dates can still change, but I was hoping to get my cruise officially cancelled so I could get a full refund.  Already have some FCC for next year that I don't even know if I can use.

Even an FCC to be used in 2021 is questionable. Seems this virus is going to be around for a long time. Most likely they will extend to 2022 if need be. 

[ECCruise]

47 minutes ago, npcl said:

Pretty much the only thing counted as Covid-19 deaths are those that occur in the hospitals and those in nursing homes.  Someone that dies at home are, in general, not in the stats in most states.

A number of states are NOT counting deaths in nursing homes, including Florida.

[Diamond lover]

5 hours ago, K.T.B. said:

Not entirely correct.

 

A good friend of mine just lost their cousin a couple of weeks ago.  They had contracted COVID-19 via a hospital visit.  They had stage 4 pancreatic cancer and was living on borrowed time.  (The doctor didn't think he'd survive into February, let alone March.)  The virus had absolutely nothing to do with their death, BUT because they tested positive it was considered a "death by COVID".  The reason being, from what they were told, is the funeral home needs to know in order to protect themselves.

 

So there's at least 1 death where the virus was not the cause, but is part of the statistics.  1 death out of thousands is obviously not going to swing how the stats are read, but it does make you wonder how accurate the numbers are.  Just because they get it doesn't dying from it.  This does NOT lessen its danger though to those who are at risk.  Hopefully when things settle down a bit there will be far more accurate statistics.

 

Please bear in mind that even if your friends cousin had pancreatic cancer, it may well NOT have been what killed him/her.  It may well have been sadly that he/she drowned with filled lungs due to Covid 19.  That would be "cause of death".  Whether he/she would have died from the cancer shortly or not, cancer may not have been cause of death.  THAT is why the "weak and vulnerable" cannot be exposed to it.  It's an ugly disease.  It's an awful death.  And it is definitely being UNDER reported, vs over reported.  They are only counting people who die who have been tested, not people who die who have not been tested. Think about that!

[GeroWA]

9 hours ago, drakes2 said:

Even an FCC to be used in 2021 is questionable. Seems this virus is going to be around for a long time. Most likely they will extend to 2022 if need be. 

Unfortunately, I tend to agree,

I'm usually a "Glass half Full" person BUT......fingers crossed.

[TeeRick]

21 hours ago, phoenix_dream said:

So if I am counting right, this applies through July 25th?  As luck would have it, our cruise is scheduled to sail July 26th😒.  I know dates can still change, but I was hoping to get my cruise officially cancelled so I could get a full refund.  Already have some FCC for next year that I don't even know if I can use.

phoenix- not sure about luck here.  The order will likely be reviewed on July 25th but not necessarily cancelled.  Do you want to be traveling the day before your July 26th cruise and take the chance the order will be extended?

[TeeRick]

20 hours ago, drakes2 said:

Even an FCC to be used in 2021 is questionable. Seems this virus is going to be around for a long time. Most likely they will extend to 2022 if need be. 

If you are correct that will likely be the end of the cruise industry as we know it.

[drakes2]

13 hours ago, GeroWA said:

Unfortunately, I tend to agree,

I'm usually a "Glass half Full" person BUT......fingers crossed.

I'm the same but reports are saying social distancing till 2022 or vaccine. I'll be 70 by the end of summer therefore will wait for the vaccine.  Also heard Covid 19 to reappear its ugly head next winter. 

[drakes2]

2 hours ago, TeeRick said:

If you are correct that will likely be the end of the cruise industry as we know it.

Could be but let's hope not. RCCL just laid off 26% of its workforce. 

[lexmiller]

https://presscenter.rclcorporate.com/press-release/96/royal-caribbean-extends-global-suspension-of-cruising/

 

Suspension through June 11, 2020

[LorraineP]

Wonderful. Thanks for posting. Will now wait for them to post refund form. 

[groryjm]

Cruise with confidence also exteded to 1st Sept

[VickyMcG]

Ugh, they extended until June 11th, our land tour for galapgos starts the 12th!

 

[markeb]

14 minutes ago, VickyMcG said:

Ugh, they extended until June 11th, our land tour for galapgos starts the 12th!

 

 

If there's one place on earth I can't imagine allowing travel of a human being with a potentially devastating virus, it would be the Galapagos. Any word from Ecuador on even getting there?

[kearney]

I just took a quick look at the CDC orders.... personally I don't know how they (cruise lines) can actually comply with the request without resulting in increasing the cost of cruising some 3 or 4 fold (at least). I have pulled a couple of requirements to provide an example of items that make me wonder how they can fulfill these requirements..... here are a few of them

f. Onboard isolation, quarantine, and social distancing protocols to minimize the risk of transmission and spread of COVID-19; Okay this makes sense... but how do you do this on elevators, in the main dining room, buffet, theater etc... one idea... cut occupancy 50% and then have two or three seats between groups in the theater. Remove bar stools, pool chairs so people are sitting further apart. Limit how many people can be in a shop at a time... close the spa.. since those services are hands on... Are hot tubs okay?
g. Onboard medical staffing, including number and type of staff, and equipment in sufficient quantity to provide a hospital level of care (e.g., ventilators, facemasks, personal protective equipment) for the infected without the need for hospitalization onshore;  Wow, hospital level care... how many doctors and nurses would have to be added to the crew.... how many ventilators would be acceptable 5, 10 50? Also "without the need for hospitalization onshore" suggests that each ship also needs to be able to provide ICU level of care... is that even possible?
h. An outbreak management and response plan to provision and assist an affected cruise ship that relies on industry resources, e.g., mobilization of additional cruise ships or other vessels to act as “hospital” ship for the infected, “quarantine” ship for the exposed, and “residential” ship for those providing care and treatment, including the ability to transport individuals between ships as needed; So does this mean that each cruise line needs to have a hospital and a quarantine ship floating around the Caribbean, Alaska or near Hawaii... just in case? Oh that won't cost anything 
 

So I only pulled a few of the required elements for a plan to return to cruising. It looks to me like a wish list. Personally I think this would kill the cruise industry... completely unrealistic. I wonder if the US navy will be developing a similar plan... would be interesting to see if they will give sailors enough space for proper social distancing.. and no sharing of beds/bunks... if they are not going to make similar changes... why not.. don't they care about the lives of our sailors? Anyway.... if his goes through say good by to cruising or be prepared to pay a much much higher fee... and less fun.

[Pushka]

28 minutes ago, kearney said:

I just took a quick look at the CDC orders.... personally I don't know how they (cruise lines) can actually comply with the request without resulting in increasing the cost of cruising some 3 or 4 fold (at least). I have pulled a couple of requirements to provide an example of items that make me wonder how they can fulfill these requirements..... here are a few of them

f. Onboard isolation, quarantine, and social distancing protocols to minimize the risk of transmission and spread of COVID-19; Okay this makes sense... but how do you do this on elevators, in the main dining room, buffet, theater etc... one idea... cut occupancy 50% and then have two or three seats between groups in the theater. Remove bar stools, pool chairs so people are sitting further apart. Limit how many people can be in a shop at a time... close the spa.. since those services are hands on... Are hot tubs okay?
g. Onboard medical staffing, including number and type of staff, and equipment in sufficient quantity to provide a hospital level of care (e.g., ventilators, facemasks, personal protective equipment) for the infected without the need for hospitalization onshore;  Wow, hospital level care... how many doctors and nurses would have to be added to the crew.... how many ventilators would be acceptable 5, 10 50? Also "without the need for hospitalization onshore" suggests that each ship also needs to be able to provide ICU level of care... is that even possible?
h. An outbreak management and response plan to provision and assist an affected cruise ship that relies on industry resources, e.g., mobilization of additional cruise ships or other vessels to act as “hospital” ship for the infected, “quarantine” ship for the exposed, and “residential” ship for those providing care and treatment, including the ability to transport individuals between ships as needed; So does this mean that each cruise line needs to have a hospital and a quarantine ship floating around the Caribbean, Alaska or near Hawaii... just in case? Oh that won't cost anything 
 

So I only pulled a few of the required elements for a plan to return to cruising. It looks to me like a wish list. Personally I think this would kill the cruise industry... completely unrealistic. I wonder if the US navy will be developing a similar plan... would be interesting to see if they will give sailors enough space for proper social distancing.. and no sharing of beds/bunks... if they are not going to make similar changes... why not.. don't they care about the lives of our sailors? Anyway.... if his goes through say good by to cruising or be prepared to pay a much much higher fee... and less fun.

Simply put, there is not a cruiseline on the seas that could comply with any of this. Which is CDCs way of closing down cruiselines without actually saying that, while Covid doesn't have a vaccine or can't be effectively treated. As I posted a few days ago. 

[kearney]

I wonder about a vaccine.... they have been searching for a vaccine for the common cold for decades... and nothing... I really wonder if they will come up with one that is better than the annual flu vaccine...some depends upon how much it mutates...but I just think that by the time they find one...prove it works... they still need to produce it and that can also be complicated depending upon how they need to do it. I assume they wont use eggs... that can take quite a long time if they use that as a medium.. Anyway... looking at the requirements makes me nervous for the industry...  Everyone is worrying about June or August... I wonder if cruising will be viable period and if so... will I enjoy it?